Author Topic: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod  (Read 1260 times)

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Offline 5kwkdw3

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Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« on: October 30, 2012, 01:50:54 AM »
First off I've ran into it here and just about any blogging/discussion site I've been on including music and instrument sites.  And that is no matter the post there are a few folk that make it their business to remind people how much of an idiot they think the poster happens to be.  That doesn't help.  It ticks off the poster and quite probably starts a feud on line that serves no purpose for either party and certainly not for the readership at large.

So here's the issue.  All of my cannon/mortars save one that's 50 caliber are either 1" or golf ball bored.  Rather than having several sticks of wood as ramrods and handles to thread in brushes for the piece, I first found appropriately sized toilet brushes that fit either the 1" or golf ball sized bores.  Great, cleaning is not a problem nor is swabbing the bores.  Now I do not ram powder into my bores.  I loosely place the powder charge and then place my tight fitting wad made specifically for the bore over the powder charge and then use a ramrod to firmly orient the charge and pack the wad right over the powder.  Again I do NOT pack and pound the powder.  Powder compression is not something I feel safe in doing and I've got all of my digits and eyes and ears thus far in so doing.

With the above in mind I came up with an idea for the perfect ramrod.  It would have an inch and a half end that extended for one inch in length and be knurled on the outside of that 1.5" diameter.  That end would service my golf ball bores.  The handle would be .75" in diameter and have a knurled section three inches long on the handles 11 inch length for an overall length of 12 inches or one foot.  The handle would serve as the ramrod for the 1" bores.  My son the machinist asked why so much slop in tolerance between the ramrod and the bores?  I told him I was only after the diameter necessary to match up with the cardboard diameter to seat it flat against the powder and to allow the card stock to collapse against the bore to form the gas seal when ignited.  Now here is where the don't call me an idiot comes into play.  I know steel on steel in not the best choice in the world which is why I specifically asked for brass for this ramrod.  It's weight alone would provide all the packing I could ask for or want.  Well weeks went by and I got a call asking if aluminum would be OK.  I wasn't sure but with the quoted price for brass and the subsequent delays that choice would produce I agreed to aluminum.  When I got the call to come pick it up, they had spent quite a few hours making the piece.

A 1.5" round was faced on one side and bored through with a 1/2" hole.  A 12" length of .75 diameter rod was turned down to just over 1/2" the last inch of its length.  This allowed for a very tight hydraulic press fit of the two pieces.  Now the unfinished side of the big end had a 1/2" rod through its opening. The opening and the rod were beveled so there was a groove showing on the unfinished side.  It was there that the two pieces were welded together and then faced off flush thereby hiding the weld and having a very professional looking piece hitting all the dimensions I gave them.   Trouble is, this ramrod was made of solid steel.  Now all of my pieces are made of 304 or similar stainless steel except one steel Thunder Mug and one steel cannon both of golf ball diameter.

What would you folk suggest I do.  Eat the cost and trash the steel ramrod.  Or with the excessive tolerance I have, coat the ramrod in some type of thermoplastic to avoid steel on steel contact?  Or would I be safe (I'm asking because I don't know the answer) with the excessive tolerance if I placed the charge through a drop tube to where the powder only contacted the breech end of the bore and then just used the ramrod for placement of the cardboard and card stock wad?  No charge for a projectile will be used and NO projectile will be ever loaded, just powder and wad.  Would that change your thoughts on the matter?  I'm really interested in expert opinions and not to hear that I'm an idiot which I know I am not!  I'm just curious as to my safe next moves should be.  Smithy.
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Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 04:10:39 AM »
Two things.  If I understand correctly you have a rammer that has a head on it.  This is not considered a good idea in the event of a premature discharge as the head will mess up your hand worse than if you had a straight rammer.  Secondly why were you considering a metal rammer instead of a wood one?


Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 08:46:59 PM »
I would be upset that they didn't make what you asked for.  That alone would be enough for me to refuse to pay for it. 

Regarding the overall design, I would need to know the bore depths of the 1" barrels and the golf ball barrels.  It is a good idea to use cylindrical rods for the rammers especially, so that a premature explosion will hopefully just slide the shaft through your hand while the welding glove protects it from the muzzle fire.
GG
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Offline 5kwkdw3

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 08:38:24 PM »
Quote
Regarding the overall design, I would need to know the bore depths of the 1" barrels and the golf ball barrels.  It is a good idea to use cylindrical rods for the rammers especially, so that a premature explosion will hopefully just slide the shaft through your hand while the welding glove protects it from the muzzle fire.

Thanks guys.  The above is something I realized when I asked myself "What if I do use it and I do get a spark and the mortar does go off?"  Of course the answer I realized is that I'd be missing a hand.  My new thoughts are for a similar design (wood and brass) with a hooked handle thus keeping my hand out of the bore line altogether.  I did figure out that the tool I have with its knurling will hold onto a shop rag like nobody's business and therefore make an excellent jag for post firing cleaning.  I've already tried that aspect of it and it works like a champ so I kept the piece and another person is making my "Real" ramrod with a closer look toward safety.  Smithy.
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Offline flagman1776

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 04:37:38 AM »
I keep my eyes open for big dowels...  found 2" at home depot which I bought immediately.  I turn the head for a loose fit in the bore & a long tapered section.  I center bore it & thread it.  I join it to a smaller dowel with threaded rod.  Glue or epoxie to suit.  Apply sealer.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 11:44:34 AM »

Quote
Regarding the overall design, I would need to know the bore depths of the 1" barrels and the golf ball barrels.  It is a good idea to use cylindrical rods for the rammers especially, so that a premature explosion will hopefully just slide the shaft through your hand while the welding glove protects it from the muzzle fire.

My new thoughts are for a similar design (wood and brass) with a hooked handle thus keeping my hand out of the bore line altogether.

Smithy.



     Skwkdw3,   Mike and I do quite a bit of shooting with rifled cannon with 1" bore dias. or a little larger.  With a half pound projectile going 1,300 or 1,400 feet per second, you would be missing something if a Premature happened with a straight rammer.  After using two dowels and copper tubing for the connector, we re-designed our safety, or "Shephards Crook Rammer". in 2007.  The photo shows it with essential gloves and wet and dry sponges.  A friendly FYI is that when we talk about cannons we say rammers and sponges over ramrods and mops.  Important features of the Safety Rammer are that it have a straight, undersize rammer shaft.  Second is that the handle works better and keeps your hand out of alignment with the bore and behind the plain of the muzzle face if it is slightly longer than the rammer portion.  Short handles do work and your hand will not be hit with a projectile or column of very hot gasses, but long handles have better balance making the rig easier to use.  Also the handle end should be tapered for 9 or 10 inches to let the Safety Rammer slide out of your GLOVED HANDS easily.  A 3 degree divergence between the two dowels is perfect.  The one shown was 5 degrees and that's too much.  We reheated the turned steel "U" and closed it to 3 deg.

Tracy


Our Safety Rammer used at the NRV Shoot in Floyd, Virginia.  Mike had a circle of string around his ring finger to remind him to Remove My Weaver K-12 Scope Before Firing!!

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline 5kwkdw3

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 01:03:12 PM »
Tracy, it was kind of hard for me to see exactly what you have going on.  If I get the picture right with the mention of copper etc.,  the bore portion of the rod is all hardwood dowel and the handle or crook is the metal portion?  Is the angle or degrees you mention referring to the bend in the handle relative to the bore portion of the rod, or does it refer the the diameter of the part of the handle you're hanging onto?  The latter makes sense as you'd want the handle to get skinnier as it's possibly flying out of your hand.  And one more question, I see ends that have duct tape on them.  What is the purpose of the duct tape?  Finally I have to admit that is the very first scoped black powder cannon I've seen.  (Yes I know the military uses essentially the same thing "scoped black powder").  Smithy.
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Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 02:02:53 PM »
     Skwkdw3,   it's not the greatest photo, but it's the only one I have right now.  You are correct.  The "crook" is the curved or 'U" shaped steel part which was lathe turned with two sockets to receive the oak dowel ends. 

     You wrote this which is also correct:     "  the angle or degrees you mention referring to the bend in the handle relative to the bore portion of the rod." That's it!
 
     Don't know what the angle is on the tapered end of the oak handle.  It's a straight taper from 3/4" (full) dia. down to 1/2" dia. at the end in about 10 inches.

    You do see duct tape on one end of the wet sponge.  Our cleaning drill starts with a "sticky worm" instead of the traditional twisted iron points on a dowel.  Use of the sticky worm is easy and almost 100% sure in removing aluminum foil debris from the bore.  To use it you just insert the duct tape end (sticky side out) into the bore and press firmly against the bore's end for two seconds, then carefully, slowly withdraw the sticky worm and all the aluminum foil and red colored fouling solids.  Then wet and dry sponge, clean vent and load.

     Scopes are popular with us "seasoned citizens".  Our iron sight days are over!  Building a no hole (in your cannon) scope mount was the subject of an old thread we wrote in 2006 or 7.

Good luck with which ever Rammer you decide to go with.  Have fun!

Tracy

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline 5kwkdw3

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 07:38:22 PM »
Thank you very much Tracy!  You've given me a lot to chew on in designing my next/only Safety Rammer for my golf ball cannons/mortars.  I think that the dual use idea will still work with my metal one used only as a scrubbing jag, but to load I'll probably end up with two different sized tools.  The U shaped handle doesn't lend itself to two different sized bores.  Thanks again.  Smithy.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2012, 08:58:01 PM »
The U-shaped safety rammer is by far the safest way to ram.  For differing bore sizes, you could make one side sized for one bore and the other side sized for the other bore.
GG
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Offline 5kwkdw3

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 10:45:38 PM »
Quote
The U-shaped safety rammer is by far the safest way to ram.  For differing bore sizes, you could make one side sized for one bore and the other side sized for the other bore.

GGaskil, do you mean to have two wooden dowels each of different bore diameters but of the same length held in common with one piece of U shapes metal.  Ie. I hang onto the 1" rod while loading my golf ball pieces then hang onto the golf ball side when loading the 1" pieces?  If that's what you meant, the whole length of the U shaped tool would be in the neighborhood of 16" long since my longest bore is only 12" from bottom of the radiused barrel to the muzzle.  That sounds interesting if that's what you meant.  Smithy.
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Offline GLS

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 11:12:55 PM »
Has anyone using a safety rammer had a premature firing?  Did the safety rammer work?

Offline 5kwkdw3

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 11:42:53 PM »
I know that this should be in another post, but didn't the folks in the Civil War days use a small pole relative to the end of it which was bore diameter?  I was thinking that on a large piece of ordnance they'd have to use basically a log as a rammer.  I know I've seen pictures of crew's using a bore diameter mop on the end of a smaller diameter pole, but can't recall a rammer.  And for more interesting trivia, when exactly did someone figure out to use a "Safety Rammer" type of loading tool in the first place?  Smithy.
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Offline oltom

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2012, 12:31:08 AM »
#1. I don't buy what I don't order..........
#2. a 'shephards hook rammer will keep you and parts away from line of fire.....

in battle with real cannons....you were a target waiting for a bullet owned by the military anyways, so cannon safety wasn't a super thought....
"MORE booze!"

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2012, 03:04:22 AM »
     Oltom has a good point when he writes: "in battle with real cannons....you were a target waiting for a bullet owned by the military anyways, so cannon safety wasn't a super thought...."

     If you want proof of that, there is that famous account below of Cub Buell and Griff Wallace of the 7th Wisconsin serving their Napoleon at the  Battle of Bethesda Church in 1864.

    And if you don't like history much, scroll down to the section in blue at the bottom.

A portion of this was borrowed from a previous thread of ours called, "Charge of Battery B at Bethesda Church".

Tracy


    The Cannoneer: Story of a Private Soldier.  (Washington, DC: The National Tribune, 1890), 207-217.
                                                                               By Augustus Buell


     Turning from Gen. Griffin, Stewart whipped out his saber and spurred to the front of the Battery column, executing a “right moulinet” as he did so. “Attention – forward, march! Trot!! – Gallop!!!” And then, as the huge wheels began to thunder behind him and the tramp of the powerful horses and the yells of the drivers and cracking of the whips mingled with the “swish, swish” of the enemy’s canister down the pike, he bent forward over his horse’s neck, and spurring him to a run roared out like a lion: “Come on, boys! Follow me!! Charge!!!” This was an order not included in the “Light Artillery Manual,” but we all knew what it meant. And to this day the surviving veterans of the Fifth Corps will tell yon about the “Charge of Stewart’s Battery at Bethesda Church!”

     Old infantry veterans who were out in the fields along the pike that day, have described the appearance of the Battery as it came down the road. The Old Man was about five or six yards in front, bending over his horse’s neck and spurring him with both heels; swinging his saber and shouting, “Come on!” Every driver lying forward on his horse, whipping and yelling every Gunner and Cannoneer hanging on for life to the guard-rods of the limber-chests, and bounding six inches high from the springless seats as the huge wheels flew over the ruts; a long trail of dust streaming behind, and the very earth made to smoke and tremble under the fierce tramp of the flying steeds! Speed was everything here, because it was necessary to get there quick and get to work before the enemy could get many rounds into us; and, besides, as it as a very desperate enterprise, it was best to go in with all possible “whoop and hurrah!”
When we reached the ground which was favorable for going in battery, Stewart gave rapid orders to “trot” and “walk,” and then – “Forward into battery,” etc. Then, depending on the perfect discipline of his boys to execute general orders without details, it was, “Action front! Right section load solid shot and case alternately. No. 1, left section, load common shell. Cut fuses one second (so they would burst at 1,200 feet, just before reaching the enemy’s battery). ‘Old Bess’ (the left gun), give ‘em double Canister!” And “fire by piece!’ And “sock it to ‘em!” All in a perfect torrent of roars!
From that time on it was “Keep that muzzle down!” “Steady, there!” “That’s right!” “Keep her there!” and similar directions. Meantime every one of the boys who survived was working for the great day.

     Did you ever hear the thump of a rammer on a shot or canister-head when No. 1 was "sending home” while you were getting ready to prick cartridge and hook on the lanyard? And did you ever hear that sound mingled with the close thunder of the enemy’s guns and the “skitter and kerchug!” of his canister splintering your gun-carriages or plowing the ground about your feet, to say nothing of its whiz and whir in the air about your ears, or the occasional savage “plunk” of one that happened to find a poor comrade’s bosom in its fierce track? If you have, it is not necessary to describe the scene while we were getting in that first load. If you have not, why then description would be wasted. If there was ever a forlorn hope of artillerymen in battle, it was the old Battery while that first load was being “sent home.” But beyond hard breathing through set teeth, lips compressed, nostrils dilated, and eyes hard-tempered in the heat of battle, you could see no change in the expressions of the boys. Almost without exception the men who took the Battery into action there were veterans of from 18 to 20 battles, and they could literally handle 12-pounder Napoleons like horse-pistols! Of course, at that time, when the personnel of the Battery had been winnowed and winnowed in battle after battle, or tried in the test of hungry marches and muddy bivouacs until every man that survived and stood by was as tough as the bronze guns that they served; or when by the frightful fatigues, sufferings and privations of that Wilderness and Spottsylvania campaign, which Stewart had shared with us shoulder to shoulder, we had been drawn so near to the Old Man that he had become not only our commander but our comrade, everyone of whom would have followed him right into an open grave if he had called to us to “Come on, boys!”

     The Rebel battery, which had slackened a little when Bartlett’s infantry lay down, reopened furiously on us as we came along the road, firing both case and canister; but their practice was not good, and they did not hit either man or horse until we halted and began to unlimber. As we unlimbered we could see our infantry poking their heads up out of the grass and weeds to look at us, and they encouraged us with loud yells and cheers; while our skirmishers, lying down in the field on our flanks, kept up a crackling fire at the enemy’s battery, as the enemy’s infantry in the edge of the woods also did at us. Under such circumstances we unlimbered, loaded, and the concert began; and you can bet that from that moment the music was by the full band. We had 13 or 14 men hit, altogether in this affair, of whom 10 or 11 went down in the single minute that it took us to unlimber and get in the first load. After that our Confederate friends had something to engage their attention beside their own practice. The two batteries were not more than 1,200 feet apart, both in the open, without the slightest cover, and the only advantage we had was that the Rebels were on slightly rising ground, which, of course, was an advantage in practice at that range, as point-blank artillery practice is always best from “the lower hillside.” But this trifling advantage was of no account until we could get in position and unlimber and get in one load. In these piping times of peace it would be useless to attempt a description of what it means to jump a battery into position within point-blank canister range of another battery already firing, and that, too, on a broad turnpike road running through open fields, without a particle of cover for at least half a mile. The Rebel battery in this instance was gallantly serviced, and they got one regular blizzard into us, but it was their last chance.


     I shall never forget the behavior of our No. 1 in this action. It was old Griff Wallace, of the 7th Wisconsin. He was certainly an artist at the muzzle of a gun. On this occasion he didn’t pretend to sponge, except at about every fifth load. Meantime the hot vent was burning my thumb stall to a crisp and scorching my thumb, so I would call out:
“For ----- -----’s sake, Griff, sponge the gun!”
And he would answer:
“Sponge, --- ------!” “Stick to the vent, you little ------ ------.” “Stick!!!”
Ordinarily I would have resented that epithet, but did not feel called upon to do so then. Toward the last it was really painful. As the leather kept burning through I would pull the thumb-stall down until no more of it was left, and then I appealed to Griff that the vent was burning my flesh. All the satisfaction I got was a fierce growl between his Irish teeth:
“Thumb it with the bone, then, --- ---- you!!”
I can see that Irish hero now, his curly hair loose on his bare head, his arms bare to the elbows, as he had thrown away cap and jacket and rolled up his shirtsleeves when we unlimbered. After it was all over, and we were sipping our coffee under the shadow of Griffin’s headquarters at the little church that evening, I said:
“Griff, suppose I had let go of that hot vent when you wouldn’t sponge, and there had been a premature discharge in consequence?”
“Well,” he says, “Cub, I had thought of that, and had made up my mind to brain you at once with the rammer head if that occurred!”  How deliciously Irish that was!

     The joke of this will instantly be understood by any artilleryman. If I had ever let go of that vent there wouldn’t have been enough left of Pat and his rammer to brain a flea. He would have been blown from the muzzle.
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2012, 03:00:30 AM »
A good read. 
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2012, 08:12:46 AM »
... do you mean to have two wooden dowels each of different bore diameters but of the same length held in common with one piece of U shaped metal.

Yes, that is what I mean.  You wouldn't be able to taper the wood pieces much but then you are pushing something relatively solid so the rammer wouldn't have to be exactly bore size.
GG
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Offline 5kwkdw3

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Re: Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2012, 09:34:09 PM »
Quote
Yes, that is what I mean.  You wouldn't be able to taper the wood pieces much but then you are pushing something relatively solid so the rammer wouldn't have to be exactly bore size.

That and for my purposes, we're only talking about a foot long or a little better.  It wouldn't be ungainly, heavy, or cumbersome at all.  Great idea!!  Thanks, Smithy.
Salvation is through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and in Him alone.