Moose with .30-30

[Ranger99]

nice deer


why is all the ground white?

[RevGeo]

Here in the Idaho Panhandle my hunting buddies and I have shot our moose with the same guns we shoot deer, elk and bears. Rich shoots a .303 Brit and killed his cow last fall. Doug used an old sporterized '06 Enfield on his trophy bull, Wayne shoots a .308 and dropped his bull with 2 shots, Bob shoots a 30-30 Mod 94 and also shot twice. I shoot a 30-40 and it took two shots.
The question is not whether a 30-30 can kill a moose, for that is pretty obvious. The question is can you kill a moose?

[corbanzo]

I have a buddy who swears by the .25-06 for moose.  He is in the same boat as a .30-30, but he also is a head shot fanatic....  Luckily he isn't an idiot and keeps most of his head shots within 150 yards. 

[Dresden]

I see another ammo loader has followed the old British African Big game formula. Buffalo Bore is just offering what works, a heavy for caliber bullet, heavier jacket, tougher core, moderate velocities. In the 30-30 offering it's a 190 grain bullet, I would just use a 8x57, or my 8mm-06 as I am a bolt gun guy. Both of these shoot 195 to 220 grain bullets easily, it's just they will out distance the heavily loaded 30-30.


As for Bears with the 30-30, put some solids from Barnes after the Buffalo bore in the magazine.

[FPH]

I guess it all boils down to shot placement. I did love watching the guy bust that moose with a 30-30 and IRON sights. So many of those  people on hunting shows shoot from such a distance it could hardly be called hunting.
FM

That said , at some point in that long range shooting the bullet from even a 300 Weatherby mag is only going as fast as the 30-30 at 100 yards . So in reality the 30-30 hunter or the 300 WM sniper are equal at some point 

 Yea the 30 30 at 50 yds compared to a 300 Wby at 500 yds.  I don't argue that a Moose can be taken with a 30 30.....it obviously can......but lets be real about the energy.

[BBF]

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 Yea the 30 30 at 50 yds compared to a 300 Wby at 500 yds.  I don't argue that a Moose can be taken with a 30 30.....it obviously can......but lets be real about the energy.

The amount of energy isn't the "be all do all" either. IE  the 44 Rem Mag, 45-70 govt and similar cartridges do not show all that much energy  on paper either.

[FPH]

So what do you suggest we compare?

[FPH]

So a .45 70 carries twice the energy of a 30 30 to 200 yds a .44 mag shouldn't be used over 100 yds, and a 300 Wby is good out to 500 yds.30 30 and .44 mag should be limited to 100 yds, a .45 70 to 200 yds and a 300 Wby to 500 yds.....I know what I'm tacking out of the safe.

[mcwoodduck]

Back in the old days of the early 1970s, I worked with three guys at IBM, Sherman, Tex. The three had bribed their wives into a hunt in Canada for moose, bear, and one other species, but I don't remember what. They talked about it every day at lunch for months, and about the rifles NEEDED for such a hunt. One used a 300 Win.Mag., one a 458 Win.Mag., and the and the other guy used a custom 30-06. All three had custom ammo loaded by someone in Dallas, Tx. cause by golly they were goin to CANADA! And big guns were needed in CANADA.
Well the big trip came in finally, and this is what they said happened on the trip. They flew up to Canada, then got on a small plane and flew to a camp, and then got on horses, and followed an old guide (wearing an equally old hat), with packers to a base camp.
They were sitting around the fire the first night "ruffin it" leaned up against their saddles and talkin, when the issue of gun CONVENIENTLY calibers came up. Everyone gave their analogy of what, and why, they brought what they brought and one of them asked the old guide what he used. He reached behind him, and pulled out an old, and very used, Model 94 Winchester in 3030. It had been carried in a saddle scabbard for so long, a 1" strap had almost worn thru a place on the forearm. The stock had been broken at the tang, and was wrapped in wire, and then wet rawhide.
Toward the end of the trip, a couple of tags weren't filled, and they asked the old man if he could fill them for them. He agreed, and when he was offered any one of their rifles he just said: No, I'll use mine. It's worked for 50 years, and it'll work this time. And it did. He was offered a new rifle as a tip, and he said if it was alright with them, he'd just take the money, as he already had a rifle.
Gun rag writers have sold a lot of magazines, a lot guns, and a lot of bull over the years. I guess havin a degree in journalism, or BS, doesn't really make you an expert on guns. Just on sellin'em.

I will not bad mouth the 30-30 but on that same note, not knowing the type of terrain, the distance or what have you, I like the larger calibers.  only because I do not have a season to hunt but a week or two and I do not want to be hindered by the lever rifle.  granted in College I would pick my shots and hunt every weekend on the farm, mostly feeding the rugby and lacrosse teams.  I know the 30-30 has been given a lot of bad press.  But if you look at the gun rags, their job is to get people excited about new products, be they rifles, calibers or optics. 
How many magazines would be sold if the cover boasted.
"The 30-30 in lever guns, no new models and no new loadings."   
"the 30-30 remanins the #1 ammo seller in center fire hunting, of course it is the only caliber"
"The 30-30 for big game, you bet.  Been killing critters big andd small for 120 years, why make anything new?"
"Optics are not needed for firearms, you just need to get closer, helpful sneaking tactics"
    

[BBF]

So what do you suggest we compare?

I would much rather look at what works, is commonly used and is legal in the area for whatever type of game you hunt.
That doesn't rule out something different.
 IE for large, up to DG game you many not find the 358 Norma Mag used by any hunter but certainly is an adequate round.

[FPH]

I don't think any one would argue against the .338 Norma Mag......I just think its ludicrous to say that a 30 30 is equal to a .300 Wty. Mag some where down range......what dang near muzzle velocity for the 30 30 to 450 yds fore the mag.
?

[corbanzo]

You know... I saw a quote on another site the other day...


"Shot placement is key, I would rather get shot with a 50bmg in the foot than a 22 short in the base of the neck."




But all things being equal...  if we are talking about the potential for long range shots, the 30-30 just doesn't have it.  Instead of talking about where the 300WB is at 450 yards in comparison to the 30-30 at 50 yards... we should see where the 30-30 is at 450 yards....  it's in the gun safe is where it is!

[FPH]

Wasn't really talking about long shots.  Just comparing where the two equal out.


It's in the gun safe is where it is!

Or should be.

[ole 5 hole group]

Sure, moose are easy to kill when you place a proper bullet properly BUT but but, unless you get a CNS strike they will usually walk back into the bush a 100 yards or so and lay down.  That 100 yards will seem like 100 miles when you pack the meat out.
 
Now if you have a skidder operator nearby and $100 or so in your pocket you might be in business, otherwise it'll be a long day.  Most Canadians I've hunted with use 308's or 303's and they keep shooting until the moose goes down or they run out of ammo or the moose disappears in the brush.  Now, if the stars are aligned just right you might get real lucky and drop one on a logging trail.   

[hillbill]

Sure, moose are easy to kill when you place a proper bullet properly BUT but but, unless you get a CNS strike they will usually walk back into the bush a 100 yards or so and lay down.  That 100 yards will seem like 100 miles when you pack the meat out.
 
Now if you have a skidder operator nearby and $100 or so in your pocket you might be in business, otherwise it'll be a long day.  Most Canadians I've hunted with use 308's or 303's and they keep shooting until the moose goes down or they run out of ammo or the moose disappears in the brush.  Now, if the stars are aligned just right you might get real lucky and drop one on a logging trail.   
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yeah and god forbid it go into the water and die.

[RPRNY]

I asked the following question (I paraphrase) : "would a 165 gr jacketed soft point with terminal velocity of @ 1500 - 1800 fps be adequate to hunt deer? " You know, all naive-like. After a number of outraged "are you an idiot, that would kill anything in North America " responses, I requested that the thread be made sticky under the subject : "  The 30-30 will kill anything in North America so STFU". They were not amused.

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[mcwoodduck]

I asked the following question (I paraphrase) : "would a 165 gr jacketed soft point with terminal velocity of @ 1500 - 1800 fps be adequate to hunt deer? " You know, all naive-like. After a number of outraged "are you an idiot, that would kill anything in North America " responses, I requested that the thread be made sticky under the subject : "  The 30-30 will kill anything in North America so STFU". They were not amused.

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Yes at the termination of the bullets path 1500 to 1800 FPS will work.
And 30-30 will work.  It will work well.
My points in not using a 30-30 are
A) most people shootng a 30-30 never stretch out the round and know how to compinsate for bullet drop over 200 yards.
B) I grew up in NJ and hunted in Up State NY and Eastern NC where a shot in the woods is not over 50 yards and very hard to find even  road tht goes 50 years strait.  maybe a 75 yard shot across a field. and thelearning of longer distance was hard for me moving and hunting in the West of Montana, Californa, Arizona, and Idaho.  The hills and ridges also throw me off.  I tend to shoot rifles that have a flatter ballistic trajectory so I do not have to guess at the distance, I do not have to aim off fur.  I only have to think about aiming high for up hill and low for down hill.
C) if this is a once in a lifetime hunt, why not pick up a used 7mm Mag, 300 Win, 338 Win, or other longer range rifle that will put meat in your freezer and good pictures for the office at any range you can hit with and still have the scope hairs on fur when aiming?
Granted if you are able to hunt for weeks on end, then you can play with what gun you want and pick your shots.  I used to play with all kinds of guns when I lived close to the farm and hunted every or everyother weekend whaile in college.
 

[RPRNY]

Mr duck makes some very accurate observations and remarks. I am a New England and NY hunter. 100 yards is a long shot where I hunt - indeed would be a field shot. I saw a moose and her calf on my property this year during deer season (I didn't have a moose tag)  and they were probably 50 yards from me - must have seen me and were utterly unconcerned. I was holding a 6.5x55 sporterised 1894 Mauser. I recall thinking anything less than an anti - tank weapon would be insufficient ....

But the remarks on the right rifle for the terrain are very valid. I would not take a shot beyond 200 yards (5 wood or 3 iron) - if I could effectively judge that distance. I do not shoot well enough IMO to ethically kill beyond that distance - which is fine, because there are really no 200 yard shots where I hunt. In VT where I might draw a moose tag (it's a lottery) a 30-30 would be fine because 75 yards is the likely Max distance and I would be comfortable with both the cartridge and an aperture sight at that distance. I am unfamiliar with moose that walk about in open terrain for which a long distance flat shooting cartridge would be needed but the7mm Mag seems like excellent advice for plains moose, wherever they might be.

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[ole 5 hole group]

Sure, moose are easy to kill when you place a proper bullet properly BUT but but, unless you get a CNS strike they will usually walk back into the bush a 100 yards or so and lay down.  That 100 yards will seem like 100 miles when you pack the meat out.
 
Now if you have a skidder operator nearby and $100 or so in your pocket you might be in business, otherwise it'll be a long day.  Most Canadians I've hunted with use 308's or 303's and they keep shooting until the moose goes down or they run out of ammo or the moose disappears in the brush.  Now, if the stars are aligned just right you might get real lucky and drop one on a logging trail.   
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yeah and god forbid it go into the water and die.

Water is just another problem one doesn't want to experience with a moose.  I met a Canadian who was invited to hunt with us once and his first moose kill almost killed him and his partner.
 
The story goes he and his partner were driving this logging trail and at one point those industrialist beavers damned up a swamp area, which was maybe 150 yards wide and 3' deep beside the trail.  Of course, this pond had 6' of loonshit for bottom, so one couldn't just walk across the pond.  Well, a big bull was standing on the far side and must have come down from the far north because he wasn't concerned at all about their pickup or the guys bailing out of it.  They dropped him with 2 shots from a 308 using 180 grain bullets.
 
That 150 yards turned out to be about 1,000 yards of real tuff going to get to him and the wrestling match was on to pull the bull half out of the water, rig up a makeshift spreader in order to field dress that bull and they didn't get all the meat out until the next afternoon.
 
If you're over the age of 40, that is not the way you want to harvest a moose, besides, you'll end up paying for it at the bar for the next 10 hunting seasons to make up for the grief you caused your partner getting the meat out.
 
Now hunting from a boat is a different story, as you can float that bad boy back to your camp without much difficulty (normally speaking).  I've never hunted from a boat, so maybe it's not quite as easy to float them as I've been told.

[SHOOTALL]

I don't think any one would argue against the .338 Norma Mag......I just think its ludicrous to say that a 30 30 is equal to a .300 Wty. Mag some where down range......what dang near muzzle velocity for the 30 30 to 450 yds fore the mag.
?

Take a deep breath and relax    point was / is at some point the larger mags have shead power and still work. Not saying if a bear was charging a 30-30 would be better than a 300.    Don't have a clue about the 30-30 at 450 but have seen several deer killed with one at over 250 maybe one over 300.
BTW you don't need to justify sniping critters at long range if that's your game all I would say is enjoy. But I like hunting close.

[FPH]

I try not to take a shot past 300 yds these days.  I just take advantage of the killing power of modern day calibers.....respect the game.  My last four deer have been 75 yds or less.

[SHOOTALL]

I have taken deer for over 50 years  bunches. One was over 250 , a few over 100, very few. Most 40 or under and about half with a shotgun. One over 100 yd was with a shotgun. One pellet in the head . That tells me if a #1 buck kills at 100 yards then most any modern bullet can if shot placement is good. BTW , the 250+ shot was with a 300 Win Mag tore the deer apart. The 7X30 Waters seems to be about the best round inside 150 yards I have used.

[Sourdough]

Head shots are sometimes the only shot you have.  Like the shot I made behind the ear.  If I had tried to make a heart lung shot the bullet would have exploded just under the hide.  The Moose would have walked away with just a minor flesh wound.  By putting it behind the right ear it exploded in the brain cavity.  Remember I was using Speer TNTs.  Bullets desitgned for varmints not big game.

Now for the Kid Dand knows the head shot was the best shot for him as well.  A 30-30 to the heart lungs means the Moose can go for a long walk.  Moose are not hard to kill, they just don't die fast.  If there is any water close by they will head for it.  If it's a river you will lose them when they dive in and start swimming.  That's when they will die, and down river they go.  If you don't drop them on the spot, they will go to the most inaccessiable spot they can find before dying.  Then you have 800 to 1200 lbs of meat to transport back to camp, to the boat, or to somewhere you can get it to an area where you can reach it with a vehicle.

Heart Lung shot is not the shot to take with a moose.  I speak from 40 years experience hunting the biggest Moose in North America.  If you are hunting in my camp you will make a center of the shoulder shot, or you will never be invited back.  Center of the shoulder shot will brake both shoulders and drop a Moose on the spot.  The problem with that is a 30-30 does not have enough energy to brake the shoulder.  Oh it may damage one shoulder, but not enough the Moose can not get around and move off or to water.  It takes a .338 Win Mag or something in that range to brake both shoulders.  A couple of years ago a guy in our camp thought his gun was big enough to not have to worry about the Center of the shoulder shot.  He was shooting a .375 H&H Mag.  He made the heart lung shot.  The medium sized Bull ran about 75 yards up a steep slope, turned around and ran back down, jumping into the river.  The shooter jumped into a canoe and gave chase.  My partner and I fixed breakfast, broke camp, loaded the rafts and followed.  three miles later we found them.  Sitting on a gravel bar in the middle of the river, in two feet of water.  We pushed it on over the gravel bar and guided it down stream to an area where we could get it close to shore.  that was one of the most miserable mornings I have ever spent.  Standing in two feet of water dressing out a Moose.  You just don't drag 1,000 lbs of dead weight up to a dry shore.  River water never gets above 37 degrees.     

Now if you are hunting in the late winter like Dand was, yea there is no water there, it's all frozen.  And if the Moose runs, so what just follow it with the snowmachines till it goes down.  A heart lung shot will work there.   

[Mtwoodson]

Moose, black bear, whatever.. Shot Placement.

[BBF]

The other consideration you have to calculate in the 30-30 vs 30 cal Magnum  at a distance where both bullets have the same energy is the construction of the bullet.

At max 30-30 Range your 30-30 bullet is constructed to mushroom. Let's presume 200 yards.
Is the bullet from the Magnum still able to open up at 450 or whatever distance you came up with.
 
Moose in water
 
I've had one instance where a moose ended up in the water in BC.
My partner( just a bit over 5 foot in height) and I waded out to the bull in waist deep water. The bull was floating with most of him below water and we pulled him back to shore without difficulty other than my friend managed to find a hole and just about disappeared right next to me.
 
I grabbed him by the scuff and got him up into the normal depth. As luck would have it, we just needed to fall one tree and he drove his vehicle right to the water and we used the vehicle's winch cable and a sturdy branch to get the bull up for field dressing and quartering.   One of the easiest packs ever.
 
Re boat hunting. At least in British Columbia you may not shoot any swimming animal nor shoot from a motor powered vessel .

[RPRNY]

Frank Marshall wrote about the "Heavy 30-30" loads although they had been around for quite some time before he did so. Imagine a gun writer actually writing about the 30-30 ?

Any of these loads would do for moose out to 150 yards with appropriate shot placement. 200 or so grains of medium soft lead arriving at 1200 - 1500 fps will cross - section a moose / break both shoulders.  The key is exceeding neither MV 2200 fps nor a BHN of @ 12 for the bullet (ie WW cast and hardened for @ 2 weeks).

(Frank Marshall data, Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook "on 30-30 Loads" )
 Lyman #311284 - 210 grs WW - 33.0 grs #4350 - 1786 fps
Lyman #311335 - 204 grs - WW - 33.0 grs #4350 - 1809 fps
Lyman #311335 - 204 grs - WW - 34.0 grs #4831 - 1780 fps
Lyman #311291 - 190.0 grs - WW/Pb - 33.0 grs #4831 - Not Chronographed - 1 3/8" 100 yd group.
Lyman #311291 - 192.0 grs - WW/Pb - 34.0 grs #3841 - 1825 fps
Lyman #311291 - 192.0 grs - WW/Pb - 33.0 grs #4350 - 1818 fps - 10 shot, 2" grp @ 100 yds
 Old West #310195 - 198.0 grs - WW - 34.0 grs #4350 - 1871 fps


Of course these loads are great in a Savage 340 or an H&R Handi. Getting 311284 or 311335 to feed in a lever gun may not be feasible.