keltec 380 test

[theratdog]

i bought a 380 the other day wanted to see if it would penetrate two 2x4's stuck together soft pine well i shot from about 3 feet away the bullets went threw both bounced of a board and fell on the ground.2nd test drilled a 1/8'' hole in bullet about 1/8'' deap to make a hollow point shot 2 rounds both went threw but did not open up bullet's were not deformed in any way rem 95 grn fmg really surprised.enough power to get to the vitals. going to try some hornady's next this gun is the lightest made 380 i have seen you would think this thing would blow up i have a jeminez that is a lot more sturdy built i would not shoot xp loads in either.

[JonnyReb]

  The .380 is viewed by some as some as a lightweight, and it is when comparing to more formitable rounds but 170-200ftlbs of energy from the cartridge is about the same that modern bigbore airgunners are getting from their .357 rifles, a 100gr+\- projectile at subsonic(900fps+\-) velocities. They use cast bullets and are dropping all kinda critters up to 200 or so lbs. That little keltec, or my bersa, is doing the same thing out of short barrels as those airgunners put out with their rifles. The pistols are much easier to carry
 
  For really dumping ALL the energy a .380 has to offer, something like a glaser safety slug could be tried. I wonder how it would fare in the 2x4" test?  Course it wouldn't work well in wintertime for protection from a heavily clothed attacker but it might make a good summertime round. I'm just sticking to fmj's myself as they shoot so accurate from the little bersa and their what I have. When I run low I might try casting some kinda roundnose, gotta research that.  J

[canon6]

Do not let anyone fool ya, the modern 380 is a darned fine defense round.There are limitations,I use CorBon,80 grain DPX.Gel tests show penetration of @ 12 inches out of a 2 1/8 barrel.This round shows 1050 fps and 196 fpe ,try them I think you will like them.Johnnyreb has a good choice, but I live where heavy winter clothing is the norm .WE say Montana has four seasons June ,July,Aug and winter. .Doug

[JonnyReb]

 Yeah those winters sound pretty fierce specially 7 month winters

 I can see why a .380 might not be a popular pick the farther north one goes. Down south it makes more sense maybe. Never considered that. Have to say that even if its not the best defensive round, its what I choose for woods carry, does better than the .22's I've always toted, just as accurate as the best of the ones I've had. Is my favorite auto pistol caliber currently.  J

[Mikey]

One of the big name gun magazines recently ran a article comparing different caliber defensive loadings, including the 380.  They found the 380 95 gn fmj ball ammo penetrated the deepest.  They also found that lots of the 380 defensive loadings using expanding slugs did not penetrate well at all.  Some opened well but did not penetrate, some penetrated but did not open well.  Some, like the cor-bon loads (two I believe) I just dismissed as too fast, too light, and not heavy enough to penetrate to a depth far enough to get the job done.  I have also found from prior experience that fmj bullets will not open up or expand if you drill a hole in the nose - the nose is usually thick enough on a fmj slug to prevent deformity during cycling and this design simply keeps it from opening whether you get into the lead core or not. 
 
The 380 has been and continues to be one of my favorites.  Used properly with effective shot placement the cartridge will get the job done.  I have often felt and am confirmed by test results, including my own, that the fmj bullet penetrates the furthest and will effect the most damage by doing so - all the defensive shooter needs to do is place his shots properly.  One nice thing about the 380 and magazines that hold 6-8 rounds is that the extra mags are so lightweight, even when full, that the extra one in your pocket doesn't weigh you down.  But, as with any defensive pistol, you need to practice your presentation and shot placement, and if it takes 3 shots to knock down a bad guy with a 380, then practice a 3-shot defense.  Truly, I have never ehard of anyone getting up after 3 shots of 380 to the chest and btw, testing the 380 on 2x4s or other hard surfaces is not a good test as the 380 is not a hard target caliber.  Get some 1 gallon milk cartons (empty of course), fill'm with water and cap them, line up half a dozen full ones, tape them together with duct tape and fire one round into them from a dead on position and see how far they penetrate.  If they go into 3 or more they are penetrating as deeply as some of the 38 spl defensive loadings of the day.  jmtcw.

[gcrank1]

I would not like to be the one in court having to answer questions about why I shot the bad guy with my vicious homemade 'dumdum' bullets! "No, ladies and gentleman of the jury, factory loads were not good enough for this madman, he had to drill a hole in the end to make it a violent expanding bullet to rip and maim; what kind of man does that?"
Quite some years ago Masaad Ayoob (sp?) made an excellent case for only use factory loads for defensive carry and NO handloads EVER; I fully agree.

[Mikey]

From my perspective ayoob never made the case.  I have not been able to locate one court case in which handloaded ammunition was a factor.  ayoob hypes for the manufacturer of the latest and supposedly best ammo for police and beleives everybody should use the same.  The gunsite instructors say the same thing, but only because they believe, as does ayoob, that the quality controls on factory ammunition are much better than on handloaded ammo. 
 
We have reviewed this issue a bunch of times and in each case we could not locate any court references to the use of handloaded ammo in a trial, except ion once case in nj where a husband left revolver loaded with low powered target ammo where his despondent wife could access it, which she did.  In this case, I believe, the issue was not the ammo but that he allowed her, a despondent wife, to access the revolver but to complicate the issue, he attempted to disarm her when it went off and his prints were on the gun, but that was it for cases referenced by ayoob.
 
The issue with the 380 was what load to use or whether a homemade hollow-point would work effectively.  My point in response was that they probably would not expand and that the best penetrating 380 ammo was simple ball. 
 
In a home defense situatiion it simply would not matter what ammunition you would be using but the question for street carry is whether your handloaded ammunition performs any differently or moves any faster or expands any better than ammunition that would be purchased and used by police or factory made ammunition available to the public. 

[Blackhawker]

I believe that little .380's and other little pocket guns are primarily made for self defense.  I don't think they're made for "gun fights" where each person is 25 yards apart and having it out as in the movies.  Do that and you'll surely end up in jail.  Or, do that with a .380 and you'll probably end up dead.   

In my thoughts, most self defense situations occur within 10 ft or closer.  Self defense: a guy comes at you with a knife or bat or has you in a choke hold.  At that range, a shot to the chest, neck, or face will surely end your self defense situation with just about any type of .380 ammo, expanding or non-expanding. 

[theratdog]

GEE I GUESS I AM A MAD MAN AND SOME OF MY BUDDY'S. I HAVE MAD PLENTY OF HOLLOW POINTS FOR HUNTING DEER WORK REAL WELL I HAVEN'T HAD THE CHANCE TO USE THEM ON HUMANS.  IT'S NICE BEING MAD PEOPLE LEAVE YOU ALONE.

[RevJim]

 I've had several .380s through the years, and I carried the Buffalo Bore 100gr Hardcast in them. I now carry a 9mm PF9 as my smallest, in it I like the Corbon DPX in winter and/or Glaser PowrBalls in summer. I found that the PF9 was the smallest I could reliably gunfight with. Now, I had a couple of SIG 232s that were wonderfully accurate, along with a little Beretta 84, but the PF9 was same size ( actually slimmer) and just as easy to hit with out to 25yds. Also, hot .380s in small pistols can be almost as hard to control as a 9mm, so I don't recommend them to casual shooters. But, I agree that at close distances, a good .380 and load will be a good equalizer. No guarantees with anything, of course.

[Mike in Virginia]

There was a news story last year if you remember, where an irate husband shot his wife in the forehead with a .380.  The bullet, I don't know the configuration, traveled around the outside of her skull and exited. 
 
The husband, thinking he'd done her in, went outside and shot himself in the side of his head with the same gun and croaked immediately. 
 
The wife was in the kitchen making tea when police arrived.  They said she seemed "confused." 
 
Just one case, I know, but I think it's the bare minimum for a carry gun, especially considering the new 9's that are as easy to carry with more rounds, plus the carrier doesn't need to worry about what season of the year it is.
 
The tiny pocket guns are no good at 25 yards.  I can't agree that a 25 yard shot might not be necessary.  If you're getting shot at and there's no immediate cover . . . 

[FPH]

I knew a Police Officer that was shot in the fore head at point blank range by his own daughter.  38 Spl. 158 gr. round nose...(dept. issue at the time).  Bullet did the same but did not exit.  He died three days later of brain swelling.  I'd throw the .380 away.  Heck, I'd throw anything under a .40 S & W away.

[RevJim]

 I had a friend who was shot in the face with a .32 by his half-brother (they hated each other) The fmj stuck in his cheekbone, eye swelled shut, etc, but no harm really. It made me see then that small pistols were ineffective on face/forehead; and eye sockets are a very small target! I heard other guys speak of several fatal shootings were the victim was shot in the neck ( .22 & .25autos were used) Seems like a better target. I wanted the penetration that BB 100gr hard cast was capable of. Of course, in a fight, any hit on the guy anywhere is better than a miss, which I did a lot with pocket guns. I grew up in a rural area, varmints and rabies were common, so a good .22 was or any handgun that one could hit with at 25yds or further was the most common. After high-school, the military drilled that "take him out" reflex in me, and It took a lot of training for me to dial it back to "defense mode". I still like being able to hit out to at least 25yds. I found that my G29 actually could take the place of an M1 carbine, out to 75yds or so. Not your regular mugging distance, but nowadays, I try to keep the Mombai terr attack in mind when I'm out and about. One can't always get to the trunk gun, and just a few years back, we had that muslim teenager shoot up Trolly Square with a 12ga right where I like to eat. Thank God I and my family were not there that day! Oh yeah, just a few years later, the other half-brother killed my friend with a 12ga and buckshot. Sad.