Author Topic: union wages? twinkies related  (Read 533 times)

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Offline kennyd

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union wages? twinkies related
« on: November 18, 2012, 04:49:32 AM »
Do not let this turn into a flame, or troll. 


The Denver Hostess plant had settled and was working when the rug was pulled from under them.  There is alreadyi talk on the news of a buyer to reopen the plant.  Apparently they made Homepride bread and some other items we use far more than twinkies.


In all the wage disputes there is always a mention of wanting a percent cut or raise, but never any mention of what the wage is to start with, or what benefits (if any) are attached.  Nor is there any mention of the hours worked.  The people at the grocery are union but don't seem sto make that much.  My question is how to keep people making enough to not need assistance.  We are running out of high school kids to work some of the starting jobs, and this economy stifles moving up any "ladder".


I can sympathise far more with the clerks at Target, Wally, K mart and so on than I can with their bosses.  On the other side, just how much skill does it take to do some of the jobs.


My brother is a union glazer, making "good" wages, (more than I), but he has no vacation built up has to do heavy work at long distances from home.  He is also TRAINED, is a code welder, and knows how to put things together according to code so it will not fall out.  He had to do a long apprenticeship.  I learned machining on the job, the way things used to st art for kids.  I also went to some schooling on my own to round out  my skills.  I also remember being in a union shop (plate fabrication, before I fell into a machine shop) where the guys ahead of me were not sharp enough to do the next promotion, but they could not use me.  Also, they made some of the people with bad claustrophobia work in closed vessels, instead of letting us trade off (I didn't have a fear of going into a tank through a small opening then).


The country needs a middle class, and skilled workers.  Are we looking at the short range picture only regarding job training and wages.    I have grandkids to worry about, not to mention my own kids.


I could write another thread on the need for stable homes and families, a bigger conundrum.
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Offline keith44

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2012, 06:20:32 AM »
I think I understand what you are saying here kennyd.  What I see locally is a desire within each union to make the same wage as all other (higher paid and usually more skilled) workers without regard to the job performed, nor the actual work required to do that job.  As an electrician, if I work just half of the overtime offered by the company I work for, at the end of the year I will make more than my supervisor.  Even so there is just 64 cents per hour between my hourly wage and the lowest paid production line unskilled worker.  My co-workers look at the wages paid in a different union that is construction based and requires travel and may or may not have year 'round employment and think we should be paid what they make.  I really don't get it...we do not do the same jobs, and have a more secure income so to me that is worth the few dollars per hour.

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Offline Defoe

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 06:38:52 AM »
If you go to trouble to train for something in the skilled trades you deserve more money than those that didn't bother.  plus the non-skilled should get appropriate wages.
there is no skill involved in stocking shelves etc.  paying low wages should be incentive for people to get training.
high school kids that I know are too lazy to get a summer job.  their goal is to get a degree, a suit and tie, and a cushy office.  they are usually disappointed.
trades schools are the way to go for most kids.  if you don't mind being away from home, truck driving pays well.

Offline keith44

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 06:45:14 AM »
yup!!


also the entry wages for a skilled tradesman compared to a degreed employee is not equal.  The tradesman will earn more for the first 10 years of employment, and in many cases even longer. I am comparing only assoc and bachelor degrees here. 
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Offline joeinwv

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 07:07:01 AM »
After that initial 10 years, the degree worker is going to make way more and continue to accumulate 401k, etc faster.

Also, the white collar worker does not have the wear and tear on the body that someone in the trades does by the time they hit 55-60 years old.
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 08:00:07 AM »
So many things go into what an employer can afford to pay a worker. I see a larger picture where I wonder what is to happen to the person who through whatever reason is useless in a modern workplace.
 
As it stands that "useless" and I certainly do not mean to imply "worthless" person is being supported by the system through taxes on those who are employed.
 
A factory removes a worker who stacked boxes on pallets and replaced him with a machine. Lots of savings on the front end, but eventually that man must eat clothe and shelter himself. The state taxes wages and profits such that it can now provide for this man. The money is still required though it now has no labor supplied for its distribution.
I would submit that the front end gains are over, and the other foot is dropping. I'm glad to have a job. No doubt I pay to let my neighbor sit at home on minimum levels of assistance, so I can work harder to get more at the end of the day.
 
Unfortunately, financial decisions are simple mathmatics problems, whose solutions become social and personal problems for the working man. We are in the throws of a social and financial upheaval. I have done my best to play by the rules of the game as I am sure most have done as well. The rules if not the game have been or are being changed. I know this game and though it is many times unfair I have learned to play well enough to survive and at times thrive.
 
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Offline lakota

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 08:18:31 AM »
high school kids that I know are too lazy to get a summer job.  their goal is to get a degree, a suit and tie, and a cushy office.  they are usually disappointed.

I know an able body 19 year old high school dropout who's too lazy to even do that. He sits on his ass and mooches off his dad and refuses to get a job because they wont "pay him what he is worth." As a high school drop out he is worth exaclty minimum wage. He thinks he should be paid $20.00 an hour minimum. No burger joint or factory will start him off at his demanded pay rate so instead of working he sits on his ass and smokes weed. When he needs money he goes and steals scrap metal and sells it. Worse yet dad tolerates it. If he were my kid he would be out on his ass.
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Offline boomerralph

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 11:29:50 AM »
After that initial 10 years, the degree worker is going to make way more and continue to accumulate 401k, etc faster.

Also, the white collar worker does not have the wear and tear on the body that someone in the trades does by the time they hit 55-60 years old.
I disagree, In the area that I am working, a common deckhand makes in the neighborhood of 140,000/year.  I am a degreed engineer/project manager, and while i do well, it is no where near this level of compensation, and I have been in this field for 27 years.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2012, 11:42:25 AM »
 If capitalism is allowed to work without govt interference, most of this would be taken care of.  People would be paid according to just how valuable they or their particular set of skills are valued by those who would employ them.
  Then the trick for one's success would be to anticipate what will be in demand in the future and either direct or redirect our efforts that way.  Some will win, some will lose..
  As for that young dropout who refuses to do anything more than sit on his assets and smoke weed..he needs some "tough love".. his dad should give him 2 months to "get a job or get out"..  So he complains ..there are no jobs available...then he can do free volunteer work, if he wants to stay in his dad's house.  At least that way when jobs do open up..he will be ready and with some small experience and work habits under his belt.  Volunteer work, especially if the volunteer agency can give a good reccomendation...is far better on a resume than is, "sitting on my butt, smoking weed".
 
     BTW:  Just where does he get money for weed anyway?
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 12:36:35 PM »
I have seen union people that were paid to do one little task, nothing else.  The union would not let him do anything else, they wanted him sitting around doing nothing rather than do something other than the one task he had been hired to do.  There I had a man making $45.00 an hour and I could not ask him to sweep the floor, or ask him to help another person load a truck.  He sat on his rear and read a magazine till I had more for him to do in his trade.  The only time I myself was ever in a union was when I was driving a school bus.  One day as I inspected my bus I saw a low tire.  I drove over to the bus barn and picked up an air hose and started filling the tire.  The shop steward came over and asked what I was doing.  He informed me I was not a Mechanic, and filling a tire was not my job.  If he ever saw me doing anything other than drive again he would see to it I was dissapplined by the union.  I hate unions.

Another of the things I am looking at is that with the older people going back to work in the lower paying jobs due to the economy down turn.  There is no entry level jobs for the kids during the summer.  Also people that lost higher paying jobs are now filling these entry level jobs.  Something to put groceries on the table.  The jobs where a kid could start out and get some training, are being held by old folks that have retired once and now can't make it on their retirement, or folks that are filling the position till they can find a job in their field when the economy revs back up, if it ever does.  The retired folks don't want to progress, they are comfortable where they are.  So the chain of progression is stagnate.  That hurts the workers.


My oldest had a problem.  He was one that thought he should be able to start at the top.  He quite many entry level jobs saying the Boss was stupid, he was not going to do the things he was told to do, they were stupid task and he was not going to do things that low.  I put him on the street, where he finally hit bottom.  I'm the one that went out and picked him up off the street.  There he was naked, hugging a transformer for warmth, behind a McDonalds, crying about how his friends could leave him in such a condition.  His friends stole his clothes so they could trade them for more drugs.  I bought him two pairs of jeans and five polo shirts.  A weeks worth of underwear, and socks.  One pair of sneakers, a belt, and a warm jacket.  Took him to my place and cleaned him up, then back out on the street.  He knew of a place to go, a homeless shelter. 

Two months later he called me and wanted to take me out to dinner.  He had gotten his life straightened out and had a job, and an apartment.  Two years later he came to me asking where he could get a job like I had.  He had discovered that one needed training or an education to get a good paying job.  He was tired of mounting tires.  I told him to go to a trade school, a union apprentice program, or join the military and have them train him.  Took a while to get through that hard head.

Today he is an E-7 Navy Recruiter.  He has been a Metal Worker (welder), and a Cop.  He has supervised over a hundred men on construction porjects in the Sea Bees.  He finally has the training he needs to get a job when he retires in five years from the Navy. 

His younger brother graduates next May with a Degree in Micro Biology.  He was worried there may not be a job when he gets out of school.  He is fortunate he got picked up on a research project.  That will see him through his Master's program.
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2012, 12:50:18 PM »
i.g. said the magic words
" if capitalism is allowed to work without govt interference,
most of this would be taken care of "


couldn't have worded it better. . . . .
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline clum sum

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2012, 01:21:00 PM »
Yes there should be no government rules on any business but every business should have total liabilty up to capital punishment.
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Offline keith44

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2012, 04:13:44 PM »
so no OSHA?? No teeth to safety regulations?? No Thank You!! Now the EPA on the other hand can take a flying leap!! ( at least in its current iteration) and the punitive taxes and fees levied at businesses is disgraceful.


After that initial 10 years, the degree worker is going to make way more and continue to accumulate 401k, etc faster.

Also, the white collar worker does not have the wear and tear on the body that someone in the trades does by the time they hit 55-60 years old.



The wear and tear on the body...maybe, but the financial compensation of skilled trades locally is about a break even at retirement.  The people hired and called engineers these days (new hires who have graduated within the last 10 years) are by title only, and cannot make a pimple on a real engineer's backside!!!  I have worked with both the old school licensed engineers and todays paper degreed engineers.  They are worlds apart.  The last of the "old world" engineers are worth every penny they earn, and more.  99% of these new engineering technology types do not know what they are doing.


Other degrees, in other disciplines perhaps will out earn a skilled tradesman, but not for a while.
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Offline lakota

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2012, 04:58:53 PM »

 
     BTW:  Just where does he get money for weed anyway?
He steals scrap metal and resells it because "they didnt want it, they just had it laying out in the open rusting away."  Oh and guess who his guy was in this past election? Hint:This kid is a classic "You-owe-me-crat"
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Offline keith44

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Re: union wages? twinkies related
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2012, 05:04:29 PM »
[This kid is a classic "You-owe-me-crat"


LMAO you-owe-me-crat...I gotta remember to use that
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