Author Topic: 4140 Chrome Moly  (Read 1232 times)

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Offline warf73

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4140 Chrome Moly
« on: January 20, 2005, 08:03:46 AM »
I've found some 4140 chrome moly for my golf ball mortor.

My question is what is the min. wall thickness can I get away with and still be safe?

My cannon is starting to change shape :grin:  If I can get a safe wall thickness.

One last question on this. What are the I.D of your golf ball cannons that everyone has or made?


Thanks Warf
"Life isn't like a box of chocolates...It's more like
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Offline CAV Trooper

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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2005, 10:02:16 AM »
Warf,

A nice mortar is going to be my next project. From the plans I've seen, it looks like a 15/16th inch (.9375) wall is good and 1.75" seems to be the normal bore diameter for shooting golf balls.

Blaster Bob, Cat Whisperer and some of the others can verify this (or correct me if I'm wrong). Some of these guys have a whole slew of mortars.  I'm jealous.   :mrgreen:

This is a link to an earlier thread about Cohorn mortar plans that may give you some info:

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=46885#img_2842
“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2005, 03:00:15 PM »
"Safe thickness" depends on design.

"Safe" to me says ability to withstand some multiple of expected pressures.

Calculating peak pressures of a tube are part of the equation.

Sharpness of inside corners, and ALL the other factors of interior ballistics come into play.

So if you don't have the mathimatical training and engineering experience the best you can do is to depend on making something VERY similar to another proven successful design.

Pressure in the barrel will be reduced for the larger portion of the barrel if you have a powder chamber - Barren Coehorn employed that in the 1700's to allow a very thin large barrel with a very small powder chamber with thick walls - resulting in a light overall weight mortar.

So, two examples that I've built for myself (what I sell is MUCH thicker):

1. Beer can caliber with 3/8" thick walls.  Bore 1/4" longer than a beer can, powder chamber that will hold perhaps 75-90 gr. FFg.  Made from a short billet of hot rolled steel.

2. Golf ball mortar - hand held - 4140 steel with powder chamber.  Perhaps 1/2" thick walls.  Bore 2 calibers deep (will just hold 2 golf balls).  Probably overkill on thickness considering the weight of the golf balls.  Powder chamber holds about 2- 45acp cases of FFFg.

Should you go thicker?  Yes if you are going to shoot lead spheres (higher pressure).  Would that thickness hold - I would hope so, but I don't KNOW.  

If you are matching the thickness of the cast cannons/mortars that are commonly available you are automatically adding to the design strength - cast iron/bronze is brittle compared to 4140 prehardened.

Could you add to the strength by hardening the 4140 - yes, but if it's too hard it will become brittle.  It MUST be done right.

The bottom line is that you're going to take the best educated guess - based on someone's engineering or experience.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline Soot Sucker

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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2005, 03:36:31 PM »
Hello Warf,

I agree with everything already mentioned. If your only going to shoot golf balls which are relatively light in weight and only use sensible charges of black powder. Then 3/8" wall 4140 no prob. However, like Tim said if you are going to use heavier projectiles like iron, steel, zinc (or even worse) lead then you should have larger wall thickness.

BTW.... My golf ball mortar mic's out at 1.70 a bit tight windage wise but I only shoot 1 1/2 oz golfballs.

Good luck.....and remember, overbuilt is never a bad thing when it comes to safety.

Dave

Offline CU_Cannon

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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2005, 06:54:59 AM »
If you are in doubt over build.  For mortars this size weight is not an issue and the price for steel the next size up is generally not much more.

The the mortar IÂ’m building is going to be quite over built for golf balls but I know that at some point in its career it will shoot lead also.  I decided to run some of the numbers so I end up with a cannon and not a bomb.

I modeled the cannon as a thick walled cylinder with 10000psi as the internal pressure and 60 kpsi as the yield strength of 4140 steel. The smallest wall thickness at .885” had a factor of safety of 2.46.  The thickest wall at the powder chamber of 1.25” has a factor of safety of 2.90.  This is assuming a conservative yield strength and not taking into account the stress concentrations from the corners of the bore or from the vent.  I chose 10000psi because it seamed reasonable, IÂ’m not sure what the actual pressure is.  I think I remember hearing somewhere that the max pressure that can result from black powder was 25000psi.  IÂ’m not sure if it is true but it seamed pretty high for a mortar.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2005, 03:04:01 PM »
Black powder can certainly go well above 25 k psi.  But generally blackpowder rifles, pistols and shot guns were held to low pressures because of the limitations of the steels of the time.  Even so, peak pressures for modern high power rifles are generally in the 50k psi range.

But I really like the way you over design.  Safer is better, besides a heavy mortar doesn't bounce around as much.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline warf73

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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2005, 11:51:13 PM »
I've got the barrel yesterday.

Was very lucky with the 4140 Chrome Molly found some that had a 1.75" Dai. hole.

On the down side I will be using 2 peaces one inside the other to get my wall thickness I wanted. But the good side is it will be a press fit (slide fit most likely I'm going to freeze the inner piece and if all goes well should slide in) and give me a wall thickness of .500".

Going to start the plans for the powder chamber later today.
"Life isn't like a box of chocolates...It's more like
a jar of jalapenos.  What you do today, might burn
your ass tomorrow."