handloading 30-30 problems

[anweis]

The handloaded rounds (30-30), on the neck of the case, show the heel/base of the bullet  much more prominently on one side than the other. I've never seen this on factory ammo. It seems that i am making ammo with a lot of run-out, off-center bullets? I see this with Prvi Partizan, and Winchester brass. But why?
a) the Lee seating die is worthless (or both the seating anf the re-forming die)
b) i have not adjusted the dies properly
c) the case walls are thicker on one side of the neck than the other (i need to turn the neck walls).
Factory ammo shoots 1"-1.5" groups at 50 yards. My handloads are twice as spread.
Any ideas?
Thanks 
 

[Ranger99]

i've loaded a gazzilion 30/30 rounds and
 i've never had that problem.
i'd say your die is off center, or your
shell holder is off center, or you're not
putting the case in the shellholder in a consistent
manner. i've used and have lee dies in
30/30 and other calibers and have no problem with them.
is your press one of the newer ones that
use the inserts instead of the old way
of screwing the die all the way in and all
the way out? i can see where there may
be some mis-alignment with that.
i've never turned a case neck on anything
i've loaded nor ever needed to. that's
mostly necessary when re-forming cases
instead of a simple re-loading.
i'd have to say mis-alignment for some reason.

[Larry L]

Last time I ordered some Winchester 30-30 brass I ended up giving it away. The necks were less than paper thin. I had issues with the bullets starting straight in the brass, like you do. The last 30-30 I ordered was Federal and while soft, was a lot thicker in the neck area and the issue went away. Might want to see about a few rounds of Federal or possibly Hornady brass will make a difference.

[shot1]

If you are trying to seat the bullet and crimp it at the same time that is your problem. Always seat the bullet with the die screwed in longer. Then back the seating stem way out and screw the die down until it provides the crimp you desire and crimp all rounds. Or if you are NOT trying to crimp the case just seat a bullet you may have the die screwed down too much and allowing the crimping part to engage before your bullet is seated all the way down thus it causes the case to bulge. Also are you chamfering the inside of the case necks? This allows the bullet to go in the case easier.

[Dee]

Once you figure it out, the 3030 is one of the easiest of all cases to load. I say this having loaded the 3030 for over 40 years. When all else is done, and the bullet is ready to be seated I set the bullet to a depth where the case mouth is center to the crimping grove. Cannelure if you prefer. With this done, I then back the plunger off, and bring the die down to where the crimping groove is in full contact with the case mouth. I lock the die here, and then tap the handle which gently crimps the case mouth into the bullet cannelure. With this done, after checking the loaded round, I then screw the seating plunger to contact the bullet, and lock it. It takes almost no force to seat and crimp a 3030 bullet into the case.
If you have any problems understanding this procedure feel free to email me with your phone# and I will walk you thru it.
By the way, my reloads are good out to, and little beyond 300 yds, in the same rifle I have been shooting for 54 years.

[Land_Owner]

1.  Some seating dies allow the bullet to wobble.  The end of the case stem is assumed to "pick up" and align the bullet as it is seated.  Obviously a better design is warratned.

2.  RCBS seating dies were internally designed to near neck diameter at the point of seating with the case to help center the bullet into the case mouth.

3.  The terminal end of the seating stem should VERY NEARLY MATCH the forward end of your bullet.  Obviously, an aerodynamically pointed bullet and a flat ended seating stem are incompatible.  You get the point.

4.  Have you chamfered and deburred the outside AND inside of the case mouths?  This will preclude hangups and aid in guiding the flat end of bullets into the center of the case mouth.

5.  Use lube, and sparingly, on the sides of the bullet body.  This eases the resistance to bullet seating.

6.  Seat all bullets first.

7.  Crimp in a separate operation.

If these don't help, your die and shell holder may be in misalignment.  Which Mfg's press do you use?

[blind ear]

3.  The terminal end of the seating stem should VERY NEARLY MATCH the forward end of your bullet.  Obviously, an aerodynamically pointed bullet and a flat ended seating stem are incompatible.  You get the point.

-
The points are diametrically opposed? I don't get it!      Just kidding.     ear

[Dee]

Not to argue, but lubing a jacketed bullet will foul the barrel much as a cast bullet will, accuracy will fade quickly, and the fouling can be very difficult to get out. A very light camfer inside the case mouth is all that is really needed to properly seat the bullet, and will also aid in a good crimp into the canalure.
Seating the bullet first is an excellent idea, and is the way I do it, and then the crimp is simply a couple of gentle taps on the case mouth where the 3030 is concerned.

[mdi]

I'd say the bullet is being started crooked.  Perhaps a bit more champher in the case mouth. Although it's possible, I doubt the seating die is out of round. Do you seat and crimp in one step or two?

[Dand]

To OP - have you trimmed and squared up the case mouths? Some new brass is pretty ragged at the case mouth and may contribute to tipping bullets as they seat - esp if you haven't chamfered either.  Good luck.

[Savage]

Not to argue, but lubing a jacketed bullet will foul the barrel much as a cast bullet will, accuracy will fade quickly, and the fouling can be very difficult to get out. A very light camfer inside the case mouth is all that is really needed to properly seat the bullet, and will also aid in a good crimp into the canalure.
Seating the bullet first is an excellent idea, and is the way I do it, and then the crimp is simply a couple of gentle taps on the case mouth where the 3030 is concerned.

Agree! Sizing lube on a bullet is a bad thing. If the case mouth is squared up, chamfered properly, and crimped as a separate operation the problem should go away. A die problem is an extremely remote possibility.

Savage
 

[Land_Owner]

2 against - causes fouling; 1 for using sizing lube on the sides of a jacketed bullet immediately prior to bullet seating.

I have been doing it ALL of my reloading life and can't find the fouling in my barrels anywhere.  Go figure that one.  Maybe I am using the lube VERY sparingly.

[Dee]

If one needs case lube to seat a bullet, one needs to look at how well the case has been prepared before it was loaded. I've been loading the 3030 for over 40 years, and have NEVER needed to lube a jacketed bullet to get it to seat. 0r any other caliber for that matter. If one is using case lube so sparingly that it doesn't leave any fouling in the bore, one may question that one may not need the lube in the first place. Case lube will also NOT cure the question this thread is about. The cure here will inevitably be about proper die set up. If lubing your jacketed bullets rings your bell, then by all means continue, but it will not solve the proposed problem here, and like any other lube, it WILL cause bore fouling.
 

[BruceP]

Could Dee or someone else please start a new thread and explain how lube on a jacketed bullet causes barrel fouling. I'm not saying it doesn't but I have never heard this before and am really not understanding how this would happen. I don't lube my jacketed bullets and won't because I don't crimp my rifle loads and I would think it would cause lower and or uneven neck tension but I'm just not understanding the other point and would like to learn. I asked for a new thread to not hijack this one as there is some good information here.

Bruce

[Dee]

Consider it done. I will open the thread in a couple of minutes. "Lubing Jacketed Bullets and Fouling"

[Dand]

thanks for turning off the BOLD font Dee - it was making me feel like you were raising your voice - but I don't think that was what you intended. 

[anweis]

Thank you for your replies. The problem desribed above occured while loading Hornady 150 gr. round nose in Winchester and Privi brass. Winchester brass is indeed very thin and soft at the mouth, Prvi is thicker, but it was annealed. Either way, i chamfer case mouths and i seat and crimp in separate operations on separate Lee dies. The press is the breechlock system, the dies go in with a quick turn. I like this because i do not have to adjust dies avery time a load a few rounds, the adjustment is consistent from loading seassion to loading session. 
I experimented with 3 things: in unscewed the top of the seating die and looked to see how that 150 gr. bullet enters and fits the seating stem. As far as i could tell, there is plenty of possibility to wiggle and enter the case mouth slanted, if the neck of the case is not centrally supported.
I also loaded Oregon Trail 170 grain .310 lead bullets, after flaring the case mouths, and 125 grain jacketed Sierra HPFN bullets, both crimped separately. To my surprise, i could not see any visible off-center problems on the necks. This ammo, with 8 grains and 10 grains of Unique, shot 1/2" groups (of 10-20 shots!) at 50 yards, at 1250 and 1450 fps. respectively.
Hm. Maybe that seating die does not like that 150 Hornady bullets, or i did not adjust it well, or the neck of those cases is not supported well while seating the bullet....
Either way, i do not need hunting ammo for this rifle, just plinking/target stuff. The rifle is set with Marbles tang and Lyman front sights, it's fun.

[bull]

I am not going to bash the Lee dies, I have many sets of them in different calibers, most with no problems whatsoever. But, I do occasionally have a similar problem, bullet seems to be canted a little such that it bulges a little at the base down in the brass, only on one side. This seems to occur most with my Lee seating dies. I have noticed it mostly in my 45-70 loadings, with 405 gr. cast bullets. I feel that it may be caused mostly by the bullet not being centered adequately when started. I think it is re-centered when crimped, but still the slight bulge. I have considered trying other brands of seating dies just to confirm this, but it hasn't caused me too much trouble yet, accuracy hasn't suffered too much. just my thoughts. As I said, I still like and use Lee dies, I just think they could use a better designed seating die.

[tacklebury]

If I remember correctly, Lee offers custom bullet seating stems.  All you have to do is send them in the bullet you want to use and for like 12 bucks they will make a stem that holds it nicely centered.  Might give them a call if you are having issues with this.