Author Topic: Playing with the 45-70 (Read 1232 times)

JPH45 · « **on:** February 14, 2004, 12:00:52 PM »

Have been trying out some different loads with some powders I have at hand. All these loads are using the Lee 457-340-F mold

25 grains of 2400 shoots accurate, scary accurate. Put 5 hots inot 1" 3 in one hole 2 in another. I believe that either canting or the trigger (still have not worked on it, pull is NEF factory lousy) did this group in, will go back to this load, more than promising. Alliant says the load is good for 1350 fps or so, didn't chronograph, I'll take their word for it.

13.6 grains of Unique (RCBS Lil Dandy rotor #24) shoots nice. @ " groups or so, but no trouble to load. Great plinker, moves at 1114 fps, soft shooting, enjoyable.

43 grains of 3031, nicce 2" groups nothing to get exicted about

40 grains of Reloder 7. Shoots at 1700 fps, groups ok, 2" or so nothing to get exicted about.

30.3 grains of 5744, put 5 shots into 1.25".... twice. very nice witha velocity of 1434 fps, an exellent extreme spread of 26, 7 if one throws out the first shot at 1453.

This rifle ought to make a nice deer slayer :grin:

I'm not real concerned with the velocities I get, anything I do with the rifle will be the ballistic equivilent of cartridges like the 454 Casuell, 480 Ruger and 475 Linebaugh, I think I can kill a deer with that.......

MSP Ret · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2004, 02:45:58 PM »

JPH45, I also have had great luck and small (some one hole!) groups at both 50 and 100 yards using 28 grains of 2400 behind a Hornady 350 grain halfjacket round nose bullet in my 45-70 Handi with a large rifle cci primer. Easy shooting load that will easily put down any deer in this part of our Hemisphere. I am trying to get into casting and shooting more lead bullets in my 30's, 35's and 45-70 rifles. As you did, I had the 2400 on hand and at another members (H&R) suggestion went to Steve's Reloading website and found this load, It's a honey, as accurate as any factory load (in my gun more accurate!!) and cheaper to shoot after loading in my little lee loader. As many have said here Gotta love these Handi's and Gotta love these 45-70's....<><.... :grin:

JPH45 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2004, 03:01:56 PM »

I will give it a try, Thanks MSP Ret. I avoided the 45-70 for a long time, now I wish I had gotten into one sooner, a lot of fun and a great rifle, Good Shooting, JP

Big Blue · « **Reply #3 on:** February 14, 2004, 04:58:32 PM »

With all of this talk about great groups with 2400, you must have heard I just bought some Varget.

I haven't tried the loads yet, just did my first 45/70 loads today, but I'm hoping my BC will like the Varget and 405gr. cast loads. I want to give those 350 RN Hornadys a try to. I've heard they make a nice hunting round. Have you guys tried a spitzer type bullet in the 45/70? I see Barnes sells some that might be a bit different for these guns.
Don

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #4 on:** February 14, 2004, 11:11:33 PM »

Blue, I shoot several hundred of the 350 grain Hornadys back when I had a Siamese Mauser conversion. They gave extraordinary accuracy and velocities to 2200 fps in that rifle. (I suspect the Handi would hold those loads but it would also spin you into a hole up to your knees with the recoil.) Those bullets are very stoutly built, and I would not expect them to give much expansion on anything smaller than elk or really big pigs. (Not that you need expnsion on anything smaller, anyway.)

JPH45 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2004, 02:07:02 PM »

Big Blue, years back I quit shooting 45-70's, I was pretty complete with dealing with heavy recoil and not getting range from the deal. I began a search for the perfect 300 grain bullet at 2000 fps. It can be had in these cartridges 9.3x74r, 375 JDJ, 375-06. Problem is, the 45-70 has such a far greater offering of components that I thought there were probably avenues I had not yet explored.

One avenue is a "ballistic tip" type of bullet. But in standard lead type bullets, spitzer designs that are truely useful only come at weights of 450 and greater. The great problem of the 45-70 is displacement. It simply doesn't have enough case capacity to drive bullets of this weight fast enough to take real advantage of high ballistic coeffiecients. That doesn't mean the envelope shouldn't be explored, it just means that the envelope is smaller than it would be with a larger case, or a smaller bore.

The other is sabots. This is the easiest to explore, get 45 cal muzzleloader sabots and experiment away. They are readily available in 45 for 44 and 40 bullets and I think there is at least one maker offering 45 sabots accepting either 375 or 35 cal bullets. Over this summer, I am going to try out some of these, you know I will post about it. The 40 sabots offer some enteresting possibilities with .400-410 bullets

I don't think the 45-70 will ever have a flat trajectory, it's great speciality is thump. Lot's of it.

Barnes approach is perfect for the 45-70, an expanding "solid" that is long for bullet weight. This allows some gain in velocity for the bullet length and a bit better BC, but I think the case capacity still limits the available velocity to speeds that render the 45-70 a short range rifle for a hunter. Looking at the available load data, the best velocity the 45-70 is capable of comes with 300 grain bullets. the best BC 300 grain bullets available are in 375. 15 years ago the only asbots available were fron Remingtom Today the muzzler loader market has exploaded with the gift of sabots...we'll see.

Big Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2004, 02:38:38 PM »

While I was exploring the old sites past posts, I did come across a few references to the use of sabots. It didn't seem that anyone was really happy with the results. I don't know to what extent those testings were taken, and maybe there are some avenues not previously explored. There was talk of using paper patching the sabots, so evidently there was a problem with the sizing of the sabots.
Don

Big Blue · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2004, 02:46:42 PM »

Quote from: Leftoverdj

Blue, I shoot several hundred of the 350 grain Hornadys back when I had a Siamese Mauser conversion. They gave extraordinary accuracy and velocities to 2200 fps in that rifle. (I suspect the Handi would hold those loads but it would also spin you into a hole up to your knees with the recoil.)

As luck would have it, I found a partial box(10 rounds for $2.00) of these Hornady 350s at a gun show today. It was the perfect opportunity to try them, while not having to waste the money on a whole box. I'll give them a shot and see how there accuracy and recoil runs.
Don

Longcruise · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2004, 06:08:26 AM »

Quote

The other is sabots. This is the easiest to explore, get 45 cal muzzleloader sabots and experiment away. They are readily available in 45 for 44 and 40 bullets and I think there is at least one maker offering 45 sabots accepting either 375 or 35 cal bullets.

Whoa, that's scary JP :eek: Yer readin my mind! The sabots are laying on my bench while I contemplate the correct bullet for my first attempt. Will try to pick up some .358 cast at the local Reloaders Corner today and hope to have a report in the near future.

Powder selection suggestions anyone?? :grin:

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2004, 06:31:05 AM »

Hey JPH have you looked at Precision rifles web site? (prbullets.com) They have some real interesting sabot rounds there some are .357 might be just the ticket for what you are planning.

JPH45 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2004, 12:06:23 PM »

OK guys, I have not fully thought this idea through, there are a few sticky places that would have to be ironed out, but I think solutions exist for the adventurous.

First, there is going to be a difference in groove diameters for 45 cal muskets and 45-70's, but probably not more than .006" It all depends on how 45 cal muskets are bored and grooved. So long as the common bore diameter is within reasonsable tolerances, I'm guessing .005" or so the concept has merit. The sabot is going to expand and seal the bore, the question is that of the bullet diameter to the design diameter of the sabot. If the sabot is designed to function in a smaller groove diameter than 458, or so, it is a simple matter to either increase the bullet diameter with paper patching, teflon tape or simply with oversize cast bullets.

Paper patching will boost a diameter to .015" but not from 375 to 45.

Remember, the goal of the exercise is to gain BC and thus increase range. It is possible that the concept will fail because of mismatches between bullet length and twist rate. I have not checked it out, but I think the 375 usually uses about 1 in 12. I know the 357/358 needs at least 1 in 18 and does best with 1 in 16 / 1 in 14. The common 35 Whelen twist is 1 in 12.

It will be at least a month before I get around to this project, spare cash is always tight.

It is quite posible that the best results will be with 40 or 41 caliber bullets.
Not bad, so long as the BC can be increased. But is has to increase a lot, say .20 or so to at least .35 and .27 would be even better. We are not talking about a little here. Bullet weight for bullet weight, the velocity attainable at the same working pressures will remain the same. The object is to get a 300 grain bullet at 2000 fps that shoots inside a 5" circle over 200 yards (+/_ 2.5" from line of sight) I would settle for a 250-270 grain bullet that would do the same.

Following some threads on another site, I am seriously thinking about some work with 250 grain 45 Colt bullets as well. More to come. JP