Author Topic: Tuning Up the New 1851 Colt Navy  (Read 1283 times)

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Offline Sargent Capnball

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Tuning Up the New 1851 Colt Navy
« on: May 16, 2013, 05:10:09 PM »
As a newcomer to black powder, the last 8 weeks have been a big learning experience. I had been shooting .22 revolvers, Cowboy Action style up till last fall when ammunition became utterly unobtainable and had to quit. But not to be taken out of the game completely I decided to give black powder revolvers a try, just to see if they were really as much fun as I've heard from "some" that they can be.
 
Not wanting to dive in too deep, just in case this turned out to be the drudgery that "others" had told me it would be I picked up a Traditions 1851 Navy and enough of the related supplies to get things rolling. Well I gotta' tell ya', this ain't drudgery. I haven't had this much fun with a pistol in my hand in a good many years. But here's the deal:
 
After 150 shots or so using Hornady .457 balls (we can't get .454's here) with 25 grains of Pyrodex P the gun started to get a bit cranky. The barrel wedge was nearly impossible to remove, and mis-fires were becoming all to common. After a close inspection I found two very obvious problems.
 
1- There was a lot of slop in the cylinder between the barrel and the frame, which is the reason for the mis-fires. The cylinder was moving far enough forward that the hammer would bottom on the frame before it fired the cap. And that's how I discovered the other problem. . .
 
2- The barrel wedge had troughed out against the arbor on the front side rendering it too thick to fit the slot properly, which made removal and reinsertion nearly impossible. It was also too narrow to hold the barrel securly against the frame, allowing the cylinder to move forward on the arbor. So here's what I did to correct the problems:
 
First, I took the barrel wedge and miked the good edge to get an idea of how much to hammer out of the wedge, then using a hard steel drift hammered the front edge back to its original thickness, which also returned it to its original width, as compaired to a new wedge. There was still a tiny bit of play in the cylinder, though it was dramatically better then before the wedge was fixed.
 
Secondly, to insure the caps would fire with the small amount of extra play I scrounged up a handfull of copper model airplane glow plug washers -- they just happened to be the right size -- and placed one behind each nipple to space the cap closer to the hammer. To test the clearance so's not to fire more then one cap should the spacing be too close to the frame I capped each nipple and checked the clearance between the caps and the frame at several locations around the frame. It turns out that on the extreme LH side the cap was less then .001" from the frame, which to me is way too close for comfort, so I made up a filing jig from .020 brass sheet and filed the washers down from roughly .032" to .024" thick and checked the clearance again. This time a .007" feeler guage went in comfortably, so I figured it would be safe to shoot.
 
At the Range: Just to be on the safe side, the first time out with the modified set up I loaded one chamer with 25 grains and capped all of the cylinders. Should it fire a cap arbitrarily at some point against the frame at least it wouldn't blow up the gun. I did that 3 times without incident so figured it was good to go, so I loaded it up and have not had a misfire since.
 
An ounce of prevention: It's obviouse by the design that the 1851 does have some week points. That in itself doesn't concern me because I can see what I'm dealing with. Let's face it, the design, as beefy as it may appear, does have some inherant weeknesses. So to prevent any unnecessary ware and tare on the frame I've backed the powder charge down to 20 grains for target shooting, which is more then adequate to make steel plates go "clang". And a happy side effect is that the gun is actually a little more accurate with the lighter loads. It's also more comfortable to shoot with the lighter recoil. I really don't mind the recoil, but after 100 or 120 shots a day, it does make a difference.
 
Since the repair I've put a almost 300 rounds through the gun without a single misfire, and only had to re-swedge the barrel wedge once, and since then it hasn't been a problem at all. At this point, the gun is absolutely reliable, and is nothing but pure fun to shoot. I do believe I'll keep it. . . . .
 
PAT
If you really want me to do something, just tell me it can't be done!

Offline Hellgate

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Re: Tuning Up the New 1851 Colt Navy
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2013, 06:56:37 AM »
Is your Navy a steel framed gun or a brass framed gun? If it is steel framed then reshaping, hardening or replacing the wedge may be the "cure". Sometimes misfires are because the hammer face has been peened too deep to hit the caps hard enough. I too, have shimmed many nipples. I take a length of copper, brass, or mild steel wire, coil it around a nail about 10 times, snip off the open rings and flatten them with a hammer on my vise anvil. Depending on how flat I pound them will determing the shim thickness. Your shims seem pretty thick. 


If you have a brass frame the arbor may be stretching the threads and slowly pulling out of the frame. That could be the cause of the cylinder slop for & aft. Generally, what happens is the cylinder gap opens up because the arbor is moving forward out of the frame. I only put 20grs powder in my 44 brassers. So far, so good on mine. I watch the cylinder gap for an indication of stretching.


It sounds like you have a pretty soft wedge. They can be replaced but are not all the same. You could take out the wedge, shape it to fit, knock out the retaining spring with a punch, heat the wedge to red hot and quench it to harden it then replace the spring and re-install. That could help with the peening/deforming you are seeing.
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Offline Sargent Capnball

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Re: Tuning Up the New 1851 Colt Navy
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2013, 08:10:20 AM »
Hellgate, My 1851 is a case hardened steel frame. That's a great idea making your washers, I hadn't even thought of that but will definitely keep it in mind should the problem arise again. And it's true, the wedge was extremely soft, but now that it's been swedged a couple of times seems to be work hardening so is not troughing out like it did at first. I did buy a couple of spare wedges, but at this point, the gun is running extremely well, so don't anticipate any more problems. Time will tell, and soon I'm sure because this gun is going to get used a lot -- no wall hangers here.
 
Meanwhile, I don't think I would buy a brass framed 1851 or 1860, but I would definitely consider a brass 1858 Remington. I also have a steel framed blue '58 and have had absolutely no problems with it. And shooting 20 grain loads I don't think the brass '58 would be a problem either, and do plan to own one one day, if for no other reason then they're a beautiful gun. I would also like to add a case hardened steel frame 1860 and a Trapper Cap Lock to the collection as well.
 
PAT
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Offline Hellgate

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Re: Tuning Up the New 1851 Colt Navy
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2013, 12:56:04 PM »
The brasser Remingtons will not so much stretch but the recoil shield will get hammered in by the back of the cylinder which leaves an imprint and causes opening up of the gap and tilting of the cylinder and cylinder pin binding.  The cylinder pin holes get a bit aout of round. The gun I saw on a "for sale" table had pretty deep imprinting on the recoil shield and a gap of probably .015". 20gr loads aren't gonna do that for a REAL long time. They are purdy.
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Offline Sargent Capnball

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Re: Tuning Up the New 1851 Colt Navy
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2013, 08:32:23 AM »
I can see that the cylinder imprint would be a much bigger problem then frame stretch in the full frame guns for sure. I have a pair of Heritage Rough Rider 4 3/4" SA revolvers in .22 cal and they are bad about that too.  They are also set up with .22 magnum cylinders, but I don't shoot magnum in them for that reason. Both guns have a little over 3,000 rounds through them and definitely show signs of the cylinder ratchet digging into the frame. I also have a Uberti Stallion and a stainless Ruger Single Six, niether of which show any signs of ware. The way the ratchet works on the '58 looks like there is a much larger contact surface so with lighter loads I expect it would do OK for awhile anyway, but would sure be a good idea to treat it right. Its true that the steel frame is by far the best choice, but having a brasser would be a nice addition to the collection for sure.
 
PAT
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Offline Sargent Capnball

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Re: Tuning Up the New 1851 Colt Navy
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2013, 08:46:39 AM »
Sorry bout the mid-stream name change, but was in Sportsman's Warehouse and when I checked out with shooting supplies for next week at the range the casheer refered to me as "Sargent Capnball". There either good people -- which is my guess, or I spend wayyy too much time there???
 
PAT
If you really want me to do something, just tell me it can't be done!