Ultra Varmint Fluted 223 Rem. (SB2-F23 )

[jbone405]

I am new here and after scouring through these threads, I figured that you guys could give me just as much information as contacting H&R, which I tried, but I hate talking to people on the phone and didn't want to wait on hold. 


I had been looking for a gun that could start hitting paper targets at extended ranges, 600 yards or so.  I also live in the sand hills of Nebraska, where there are ample meadows with coyotes and prairie dogs just waiting to be shot at from afar.  I also spend a lot of time in a tractor or a truck and never know when something I want to shoot will pop up.


I am also cheap and get more pleasure from making a low price gun better that buying a expensive gun(that is already better than my skill level) and not getting to tinker with it.  The more I have read about these guns on here the more I like them.  I don't even own one yet, but I already want to get more barrels. 

So first off, I am looking at getting the rifle in the subject line.  I plan on having the barrel hand lapped with a lead lap and coated with some powdered molly as described in this article( http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn_II.asp last big paragraph). I also plan on doing several things to accuratize this rifle that I have read in the FAQ's.  Even though money is tight I am not afraid to spend a little money to maximize my investment.  Any hints here are also welcome.


I would like to build up a little long range skill with the cheap .223 ammo and start to reload after a while, again because I am poor.  Once I have some skills and a little reloading know how, I would like to get a .308 barrel.

Question for you:

1. I don't particularly like the Ultra Varmint stock and I much prefer the Survival stock so I can store ammo and things of this nature. Is one or the other better for accuracy in your valued opinions? 


2. I would like a new barrel, but would I be better off/cheaper finding a used Survivor/Ultra receiver and having them mount a new fluted 24" .223 and get a synthetic forearm, or simply buying the Ultra Varmint package outright and tinker from there.


3. I do however like the bi-pod mounting of the Ultra Varmint forearm but it doesn't really seem to be all that much more effective than the regular synthetics, as I see a lot of people mounting bi-pods by the break.  Is there a better forearm as far as accuracy is concerned?


4A. I want to mount a compensator to partly increase accuracy but also to guard the threading when I am not messing around with oil filter suppressors. What is the outside diameter of the muzzle so I can get a compensator that would mount flush with the barrel, or do you know of one that would fit this description?


4B. Are there any problems with cutting treads on a heavy barrel like the .223 fluted?


4C. Do I have to get a 200 tax stamp if I make my own suppressor instead of buying one?


5. Probably one I will have to find out myself from them, but would it be possible to get a bull .308 fluted from the factory?


6. Probably have to call on this too, but I am thinking about the possibility of eventually shooting heavier longer bullets, even though I know some of you have said you have had good luck with the 1:9, but I am always curious.  Could you get a barrel, even custom, in .223 with a faster twist, say 1:8 or 1:7?


Feel free to call me crazy with my project, but I have just been bouncing these ideas around in my head and figured you guys could help clear some things up. 

If I am way over estimating the H&R ability and accuracy at long ranges,don't hesitate to let me know.  I just love doing more with less and I feel like this gun was probably made for somebody like me.


Sorry for the long post, thanks to the FAQ's it is only about 1/3 of my questions.


Thanks in advance for your time.


Jordan

[quickdtoo]

Welcome Jordan!  I don't like to burst bubbles, but the fluted barrels were discontinued a couple years ago and aren't available as an accessory barrel, fluted rifles are only listed on the website for those dealers that may still have old new stock in their inventory. Since you want the Survivor stock just pick up a new/used late model 1:9" extractor rifle with the 22" or 24" bull barrel and buy/trade the Survivor stock, all stocks are interchangable on modern H&R/NEFs. Be aware the 1:9" wouldn't be my first choice for 600yd rifle,  faster twist H&R barrels aren't to be had without making a stubbed barrel with a faster twist blank. Muzzle diameter of bull barrels is ~.800", they've never made a fluted 308Win barrel that I'm aware of, although they have made 270 Win fluted bull barrels if you're lucky enough to find one, the 308 Win Survivor comes with a 22" bull barrel tho if 308 suits you.

Tim

[redleg11b]

My 1:9 twist barrel will send pills right into a turkey target at 500 yards.  It has the camo dipped synthetic stock.  Ammo selection matched to your rifle is more important that twist.  You match ammo to twist and harmonics.  Buy or build a suppressor still requires the $200 infringement tax to BATFE, the difference is Form4 vs. Form1.  Shop around for a newer used .223 with the 1:9 twist or a .308 depending on which caliber you want most.  The receiver is the same (SB2) and can be fitted with other barrels later.

[Deerhunter#1]

or a 25-06 which can fling those 85 grain bullets way out. I know where you can get one

[jbone405]

Thanks for those responses guys. 


About the fluted barrel, I was only leaning that way as I had read a few places that when the barrels heat up on the rifles it tends to affect accuracy and thought that would be a good way to mitigate that aspect. 

Have you had any experience with a slight loss of accuracy when the barrel heats up of will that mostly be mitigated with proper beading and floating?


I saw a UV with the fluted barrel that I wanted online for $313 so if I decide ultimately I want a fluted barrel that might be my last chance?


Redleg are you selling one? I will definitely be checking the classified out.  Ha, I live pretty far out there, they probably aren't getting a tax from this guy 


Deerhunter, I thought about a 25-06, i'm really open to any caliber, except I decided on a .223 because of the cost to operate it.  Once I start reloading myself, all's fair.  25-06 OR 22-250?  I don't know much about a 25-06. I already have a .243 and 30-06.

[jbone405]

Did a little search, found a SB2-F23 used for 250.  Is the fluting worth it though?

[YRUpunting?]

Given there is almost no 223 ammo for sale right now or what is available is selling for $1 per round (case of 1000) I'm decided my 223 purchase is going to probably going to be next fall when all this craziness hopefully has at least slowed down.  You cannot even find new dies or components right now, unless you are willing to buy the really high end stuff.

This is the top banner on ammoseek.com right now:

IMPORTANT NOTE! Due to fast-moving items (such as .223/5.56) at many retailers, it's become impossible for us to keep up with whether an item is IN STOCK or not.  We've seen items appear and then go out of stock in less than two minutes, but we can only update many retailers once per hour at best.  So, please bear with us!

[jbone405]

True, rifle prices would probably go down too, but I want it now!

And I don't really get to run a lot of shots now anyhow.  I don't currently live on the ranch, just trying to get all my excessive purchases out of the way ahead of time. 

Starting to look at a 22/250.....   This is all your guys' fault.

[YRUpunting?]

True, rifle prices would probably go down too, but I want it now!

And I don't really get to run a lot of shots now anyhow.  I don't currently live on the ranch, just trying to get all my excessive purchases out of the way ahead of time. 

Starting to look at a 22/250.....   This is all your guys' fault.

What you need is a 357 Mag so you can ream it to 357 Maximim and then you will have to start reloading since loaded Maxi ammo is hard to get.   

The 22-250 would be a good choice too.  You can down load it to 223 and 22 Hornet levels once you start reloading. 

[Dinny]

I would stick with your 243. I use mine to hunt coyotes and deer. It's a capable caliber in the right hands. 58gr V-Max factory Hornady ammo shoots great a long ways out.

Thanks, Dinny

[redleg11b]

Not selling my .223 or any cans, sorry.  I have a .357 and 20ga barrel set planned for it eventually.  I have 250 rounds of the ammo it likes that will last me a few summers for groundhogs.  I have also cut and crowned the barrel at 18" on it.  It handles like a dream now.  It doesn't shoot as well as a 700 I had (in my avatar pic), but it will do out to 350 on groundhogs just fine.  I haven't shot for groups beyond 300, just steel silhouttes.

Buying a rifle in parts is usuall more expensive.  Find a caliber you think you'll enjoy later, send it in for a .223 barrel if you can't find a used .223 for a fair price.

As to needing a fluted barrel?  Adequate forend work will alleviate most of the wandering zero caused by a heating barrel, but so does slow rate of fire and not allowing it to get too warm.  I'm sitting on a few different calibers of ammo myself in case a great deal comes along when I actually have money to invest.

[theratdog]

jbone ammo is tite right now but brass is still out there. most the caliber's you noted loaded stuff is pricey the handy rifle is a fine low priced rifle and you can have it fitted with other barrels the 223-22-250-243 are great shooters 243 in a handy i have never owned but have a winchester mod  70 .my 223 groups don't open up like my shorty after 5 rounds.what is nice about the handy's you can fix them up the way you like with out breaking the bank i have 15 including shot guns. this site is your friend you can find what you need or find out where to get it.good luck and have fun.

[jbone405]

Looking past the current market though, the .223 seems to be cheapest to reload and shoot.  I have several .22lr's an SKS that doesn't really have much accuracy at 100 yards, though I still need to do some work accuratizing it and if I ever get it accurate I might try to take it to 300 yards.  I have a .243 savage model 99, not the best long range format, plus it is my old mans and I doesn't have a very powerful scope for target shooting.  And I have a Browning BAR 30-06 that is set up for deer and kicks like a mule and I don't really want to take it past 300 yards. 


So to fill that .22 to .243 gap I thought a .223 would work well, then in the future if my skill ever gets up there to shoot over 600, a .308 ballistics beat the 30-06 from what I have seen.

In terms of reloading, how many similar parts/dies are there for the .308 and 30-06?

[gcrank1]

Fluted looks snotty......Im not convinced it does anything more on a Handi platform than be that and carry a bit easier. You will likely find shots 'walking' if your rate of fire is too fast with any Handi.
308 beats a 30-06??? I believe this is the first time Ive heard that statement made.
An H&R is fairly cheap, so why not buy one AND the reloading components and start reloading (and shooting WAY cheaper) right away? Everybody who has 'finally' got to reloading has asked,'now why didnt I do this sooner?'.
Im inclined to recommend you working up your 243 first also, and keep your eye out for a 25-06 H&R for your purpose. IIRC 'Sourdough' here , among others, has used one to good effect at distance. It will shoot the heavier projectiles you say you want and beat the wind better than a 22 cal. just the way it is (and you can load it down, it doesnt have to be a full blown 25-06 ALL the time).
IMHO forget the can and the bipod.

[Sourdough]

I have both .223 Ultra and a 25-06.
 
The .223 is great for shots against Coyotes and Foxes, out to 300 yards for Coyotes and 500 yards for Foxes.  The 55gr bullets are the only ones I can get good accuracy with out of my 1 in 9 Ultra.  They just don't have the energy for clean kills on Coyotes out past 300 yards.
 
The 25-06 is great for longer ranges, out to 700 yards.  The 25-06 only shoots one bullet out past 500 yards well, that is the 110gr bullet.  Lighter bullets bleed off velocity too fast and are affected by wind too much.  Heavier bullets just don't have the range.  Don't shoot a Fox under 200 yards with the 25-06, it gets messy. 
 
The .308 is a good round.  It was developed by the military so a soldier could carry more ammo, and the same round could be used in the machine guns being developed at the time.  One round for all NATO troops.  But there is a reason it's called the 30-06s little brother, it just can't do what the 30-06 does.  It's a little slower, uses lighter bullets, with less energy.  Ues it can shoot the same bullets as the 06, but not with the same speed and energy.  The optamum bullet for the .308 is the 165gr.  For the 30-06 it's the 180gr.  Lighter bullets are not heavy enough to have the velocity needed to reach out, and heavier bullets bleed off velocity and energy too fast.
 
A fluted barrel on a Handi will only reduce weight.  Maybe it will give yo one or two more shots before beginning to string due to heat buildup.  But for a hunting gun that usually is not a problem.
 
I put a break on my 25-06, I like seeing the bullet strike.  As for a can (suppressor) I have one on my 30-06.  Won't put one on the 25, too much trouble developing a sub-sonic load, and too short of a range.

[jbone405]

I would love to go ahead and spend the money on starting reloading now, but buying a $300 rifle and capable scope puts a pretty big dent in the wallet; then a single stage press, dies, brass, powder, bullets, primers, I think my fiance might melt my face off with the laser beam stare coming out of her eyes. 

After looking around today I think I might go with a H&R .243 of some type, less reloading components as some other people in the family have one I will be reloading for.  It would work on the PD's as far as my skill will go.  Still attach a compensator of some type because I too like seeing bullets hitting. 


I already have a 30-06 so how do reloading components mix between the 25-06 and 30-06? Does the 25-06 make it over 1000?


The suppressor was just for the fun of making one myself, not really for any reason other than my satisfaction.

[Sourdough]

The 30-06 will hit a target at 1000 yards, and I presume the 25-06 would as well.  The problem is how much energy is left at 1000 yards.

[redleg11b]

115 gr bullet at 3060fps (.446 bc approx; reported velocity of Win Ballistic Silvertip 25-06) will have 432ft/lb energy at 100 yards.  That is plenty enough for target shooting, and for smaller vermin like coyote.  It will still be supersonic too at 1330 fps.  The 1000 ft/lb recommended minimum for deer sized animals runs it out to about 550 yards for those sized animals.  .2506 is just a necked down 3006.

[jbone405]

The 25-06 at 115 gr bullet and the .243 with a 100 gr bullet both in Winchester ballistic silvertip, seem to have very similar ballistics when I put them into the external ballistics calculator that I have been using, so I don't really see the advantage.  Can't both rounds be underloaded? I already have a .243 and so does my brother in law, so I wouldn't have to buy another set of dies to reload another round. I also have a 30-06 but I don't know how many of those dies would be interchangeable with the 25-06 if any?

[gcrank1]

True, but the 25-06 has the advantage of being able to go heavier.
Not to put doubts in your mind, but you should know that a number of people have had accuracy issues with H&R 243's.

[Sourdough]

The optimum bullet for the 25-06 is the 110gr.  jbone405 rerun your program using the 110gr bullet, it retains it's velocity and energy better then the 115.

[elkslayer4x5]

True, but the 25-06 has the advantage of being able to go heavier.
Not to put doubts in your mind, but you should know that a number of people have had accuracy issues with H&R 243's.

 Its my understanding that the 1:9 twist .243 barrels don't handle the longer 100 gr bullets as well as they could that gives them the knock on the .243 barrels acuracy, while the 110 gr bullet is in the .25-06's wheelhouse.

[quickdtoo]

H&R 243 Win barrels are 1:10", some possibly even 1:11" as comfirmed by some, twist rates are listed in the FAQs. 

Tim

[jbone405]

Yeah I have heard about the finicky .243. A little doubt goes with that.

The fact is though that I am not going to even think about a 25-06 unless reloading works between it and the 30-06.


I am not really trying to make impressive groups, I want to be able to hit coyotes and pd around 600 so I would probably have to be making 5 inch, 1 MOA groups there 1/2 MOA for PD, and basically just large target, 2 or 3 feet, at 1000 yards.  I am not real clear but at 1000 2 MOA is about 20 inches?

My house sits by a creek and these damn coyotes will sit out there 400-600 yards away.  I just really want to reach out there and touch them. 


I think the .243 could do that if I could get it shooting some pretty small groups at 100. I still would rather have a .223 to work up to 300 and then upgrade, as reloading isn't going to happen right away. Any thoughts?


Thanks for all the comments.

[gcrank1]

The only thing you will 'share' in reloading components between 25-06 and 30-05 is Large Rifle Primers and possibly powder if you choose one that will work well in both. You will buy 25-06 brass rather than reform it from 30-06, trim, possibly neck turn, etc. (somewhat advanced techniques for calibers you cant buy brass for). You will need 25-06 dies and bullets too.; a good bench mounted reloading press works for all. Sometimes Lee has 'sets' on sale with all you need in 'tools', including a dieset.
I recommend you spend your available funds now on setting up for reloading the rifle(s) you have and wringing the best out of them that you can (remember, if you  reload you WILL shoot more rounds for your dollar than buying ammo!) before buying another rifle.
With the 243 and 30-06 you already have you will learn the reloading basics and be in a lot better position to consider another caliber.
BTW, there is no one here that will dispute that the 30-06 is capable out to 1000 yards. If you are curious, look up the 'National Matches' of the years, and beyond, when the 30-06 was the service cartridge and the Springfield '03 was king, then later the Garand. They do use 223 now because it is the service cartridge. I cant help but wonder, if given the choice, how many of the competition shooters would opt for the 30-06 over the 223?

[jbone405]

Gcrank that is about what I was looking for. Definitely not going the 25.06 route.


I was kind of thinking about starting reloading first, but my .243 is a savage 99 which is accurate but I don't know if the short little 20" barrel would do the job. Plus it is my dad's and it stays at the ranch. 


I don't really like the idea of shooting my 30 all that much, it has a lot of sentimental value, plus it is a BAR and it kicks like nothing I have ever shot.


The reason I wanted a .223 in the first place is because I need something to fill the .22 lr to .243 gap that isn't a buck a shot, but can go a ways.


I do need to start working with the .243 more and see what it can do.


I have been looking at a lee turret press, but I haven't looked a lot. 


Thanks!

[gcrank1]

I have been using primarily Lee products for 30+ years, few problems and what I consider good value for my hard earned dollar. Those tools have way more than paid for themselves. I have other brands too, bits and bobs that I have picked up at gun shows and here on the classifieds (shop here first for used!). A single station press is a good place to start! You will add more as time goes by but you will always have a use for that sgl. station. I have the old Lee 3 hole turret press and it makes as good cartridges as a sgl., the real virtue to me is that with the multitude of diesets I have, many already set up and adjusted in their turret, they are ready to plonk on and go. If you want/need to start out low buck, go with a sgl. station.
I understand your caliber choice logic, it is not unlike what I have tried in the past (this caliber betwixt those other two.......etc., etc.) and in the real world of shooting that 223 will teach you a lot. Due to the current anti-gun rising sentiment dont expect 223 to become readily available and/or cheap any time soon. Get good reloadable brass, small rifle primers, look for a powder that can do duty in a non-gas operated rifle that also works in 243 and maybe even usable in the '06 (since Im primarily a cast bullet, lower velo shooter I will defer to my esteemed colleagues here to make powder recommendations for jacketed) and a bullet weight the H&R will like, load 'em up and go shootin'.

[jbone405]

Perfect, I thought about a single station press, but I have a couple people who would probably go in with me on a press so we could get a little more in terms of a reloading.  They have .40, 9mm, .243, 30-06 that we would all probably reload for, I guess that is what diesets are for.  I guess it is time to start looking the first press I am going to buy....


Thanks a bunch again.


Still want a .223....... [size=78%] [/size]

[gcrank1]

If you get a turret press get a good bunch of turrets to start with, you WILL fill them up with dies. Downside is each is $10+..........