Author Topic: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass  (Read 633 times)

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Offline JamesIII

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Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« on: February 02, 2013, 07:02:48 AM »
I have started reloading for a 270 win. I am using both r-p and federal brass. When I am finished most of the Hornady 100 gr bullets can be moved with my fingers. I have disassembled the Redding dies and cleaned them. There were no scratches or obvious defects. I tried backing the seating ram out and lowering the die to get a little crimp but it did not help, as a matter of fact it would start to crush the neck back if I went to far. The bullets do measure .277 dia. I am using an ultra-sonic cleaner for brass cleaning and Hornady one shot for case lube. Any help would be much appreciated. JamesIII

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2013, 07:15:30 AM »
James
 
It sounds to me like your expander ball is slightly oversized , pull it out of the die and check to see what it measures , it should be in the ball park of .275 or even a little less .
 
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Offline JamesIII

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2013, 07:43:13 AM »
Pulled the expander ball out and it measures .2755. Does this need turned down a little? James

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2013, 07:54:51 AM »
You may want to give a bit of a polish and do you have any other bullets to try ? Could be just the Hornady's don't like your brass .
 
Also are these case's once fired or more ? The reason I ask is that you may have them work hardened and losing some neck tention from being too hard and not springing back like they should .
 
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Offline JamesIII

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2013, 08:22:15 AM »
All once fired brass. These are the only bullets I have so far, I will be getting some others soon. I think I will wait for the other bullets before polishing the expander ball. I wonder what the manufacturers use for an interference fit number? James

Offline cybin

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2013, 03:37:44 PM »
You may want to invest in a Lee Factory Crimp die, though the roll crimp should have done the trick.
 
cybin

Offline BruceP

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2013, 04:35:43 PM »
Were you using any crimp on the first loads. You said that lowering the die for crimp set back the neck If you were already crimping it could be doing the same thing only at asmall amount that you could not see and still be messing up your neck tension. I haven't used the 100 gr Hornadys but I never crimp my bolt gun loads and have never had a problem with the neck tension.

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Offline Larry L

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2013, 05:28:00 PM »
 Tell ya what ya try. Remove the stem and sizing ball from the die. Run a piece of once fired brass into the die just like you were going to do a full resize on it. Measure the opening of the neck where the bullet contacts the neck. It should be .276 or smaller. If it's not, either the die is made wrong and not reducing the neck in size enough, the brass has extremely thin necks, or the brass has lost it's ability to hold tension. Considering you have Federal and Remington brass doing this, I doubt the neck being thin is the issue but give it a try anyway.

Offline BBF

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2013, 07:36:01 PM »
In the meantime.
 
 Run the brass through the Die until the primer pops out. You should be able to do that with the Dies adjusted to neck size only. Once that is done, remove the stem and sizing ball and full size the brass again. I'm thinking you are going to get a good grip on those bullets.
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Offline JPShelton

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 01:24:06 AM »
Nobody wants to hear "operator error" when looking for help over a problem like this, but I think the problem is simply that your decapper / sizer die isn't correctly adjusted.
The brass isn't the problem.  The last .270 I loaded last month got loaded into once-fired Federal and unfired, nickle plated R-P.  The bullets aren't the problem. I used Hornady bullets, too.  Measured .277" like I knew they would.  Your case cleaning and lube aren't the problem.  Your bullet seater is doing exactly what a properly made and improperly adjusted bullet seater should do.
But in adjusting the bullet seater to get crimp to solve a problem that you shouldn't have, you're adjusting the wrong die!!!
Did that set of dies come with instructions for adjusting the decapper / sizer die?  If so, did they say something like "Proceed by inserting the correct shell holder, indicated on the die box label, into your press ram..."  And did you do that?
The protocall for adjusting a sizer / decapper isn't uniform from one brand to the next.  Neither are the height of shell holders.  One thing that is pretty common is that instructions for adjustment almost always involve indexing off a ram at full upward travel, with the "correct" shell holder inserted, and the die screwed down to make contact with it.
Your expander ball is fine at .2755.  You only need an interference fit of .001" less than bullet diameter for adequate neck tension.  And .002" less is about the most you ever want or are likely to get.  You don't want it lower than that because then you'll be resizing the case again during the bullet seating operation and working the brass again when you don't really need to.
Let's think about how this thing works for a minute.  Your fired case has a neck opening at least .277" or there would still be a bullet in it.  So when you run that up into the die, what effect does the expander ball  of .0015" smaller than what is supposed to expand really have?  None, right?  Because on the upstroke, there is nothing to expand.  If your die is correctly adjusted, the neck will get squeezed on the upstroke to a dimension smaller than the expander ball.  When you lower the ram, the expander ball gives the neck its finished interior dimension.  That should measure .001" to .002" less than bullet diameter.  That's all you need for a good interference fit and proper neck tension and for reasons to detailed to get in to here, that's all you really want.
So if this isn't happening, odds are that your case isn't getting pushed up far enough into the die for any neck sizing to occur.  If you adjust a sizer die too deep, you get a sized neck but a shoulder pushed so far back that it causes the body below it to buckle.  So we know what direction we need to screw your sizer die....
What I would do is break out my caliper, lube a case, run the lock ring up the die and out of the way, screw the die in an eighth of a turn, run the case through it, and measure the neck interior.  I'd keep doing that an eighth at a time until I got to the point where I was neck sizing the case and only barely partially resizing the body and I'd stop when my measurement read .276" .2755" and load away.  When my cases started getting a little tough to chamber, I'd screw the die in another eighth, run all my cases through that to bump their shoulder back, then back the die out the eighth I screwed it in, and keep partial-sizing until the cases were recyle material.
JP

Online Lloyd Smale

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2013, 02:49:19 AM »
something else to think on is if your seating to max overall lenght stated in a manual with a bullet that short it might not be seated deap enough for the neck to get a decend purchase on the bullet. a 100 grain 270 bullet is a very short bullet. Make sure your seating deap enough so that at least 2/3s of the neck is gripping the bullet
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Offline JamesIII

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2013, 12:34:47 PM »
Thanks guys, this gives me something to work with. JamesIII

Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2013, 09:12:57 AM »
Stop trying to crimp, do not crimp!  When you crimp you get a small, tight ring around the bullet but cause all of the neck behind it to open up.  Think think chinese finger trap, when you push the ends together the diameter gets bigger, same-same with your case neck. Good brass properly sized will be all you need.
 
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Offline BBF

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2013, 08:55:12 AM »
Not  with the LEE crimper. Whatever tension you had on the neck/bullet will not change.
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Offline JamesIII

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2013, 02:23:57 PM »
Ok, I pulled all the bullets with my fingers. I then took the sizing die apart and cleaned it thoroughly again. I removed the depriming pin and installed the sizing ball, but up fairly high. I then CAREFULLY  full length resized them. All is good, bullets now fit fine. I can only guess that crud or something kept the brass from going all the way up. I have not changed how I set the die up, but it now works fine when completely assembled and used as normal. Thanks for the help, it was quite the learning experience. JamesIII

Offline JPShelton

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Re: Bullets loose in 270 win. brass
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 04:07:12 PM »
Glad it's working for an you "got 'er goin yer' way" now !
 
JP