Author Topic: 45-70 load question (Read 1223 times)

rawdog · « **on:** February 12, 2013, 09:30:18 AM »

I have mentioned once before that I have ordered a 45-70 BC, which I am anxiously awaiting still, while i continue shooting and reloading a 30-30 Handi. I have only recently gotten back into reloading smokeless after 25 years of almost exclusive blackpowder flintlocks. I have previously noticed in more than one thread and again in this thread
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,274883.0.html

the mention of what seems to me like very light loads of Unique. In the thread, Gcrank1 gives a "10-12 grains of Unique" light load recommendation for 45-70 fireforming. Off the top of my head, i I think I have also seen around 20grain Unique load recommendations too. I have typically seen load density recommendations of no less than 60% to avoid detonation especially wth faster powders. Since i used to use Unique for a pistol powder, my recollection is tthat it is pretty fast compared to rifle powders.

So, isn't that a very small charge in that cavernous 45-70 case (that is, extremely low load density)? Is a filler of some kind used to take up the space and keep the powder close to the primer? I have never reloaded 45-70 (Yet!) nor cast bullets. Is this light load limited to cast bullets?

I did understand Gcrank1's explanation of reloading 45-70 with cast vs with jacketed and the reason for not resizing.... cool.

rawdog

Tackleberry · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2013, 09:42:02 AM »

I don't really understand the reference to fireforming...why would you need to fireform a .45-70 case?. even if you were making it from .45 basic, its just a trim it to the right length thing.

Can't speak for Unique...there are several great loads that will work in the BC. I cast my own bullets for it, including a 405 grain and and a 535 grain Postel bullet, that performs really well . I must say I rarely shoot "smokeless" loads in my BC. Part of the fun for me is the look, and the feel, and the sound of a blackpowder cartridge...or, a suitable substitute. Definitely try Blackthorn 209 for blackpowder type loads that make a nice cloud and are very accurate. I use 777 and also I've used Pyrodex. I typically used compressed blackpowder loads, with a fiber wad, the the bullet. No space left in the shell. I have used the 5744 powder for smokless loads and it works great too!!!. Just without the smoke. If you are after high velocity rounded with jacketed bullets...plenty of loads listed in all the books. I for one do not think you have to stick with Trapdoor loads for the handi rifle. Your ability to withstand big recoil with that steel butt plate is your limit...it was for me.

either way you go, the BC is easy to clean after shooting the dirtier powders.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2013, 09:48:32 AM »

You'll find well documented data for Unique on the GMDR site for 300gr, 350gr and 405gr cast bullets, the biggest danger is multiple charging with the large case, good handloading practice and procedure to avoid the overcharges is imparative, eliminating the issue is one of the big pluses for using Trailboss.

5744 is a great powder for the 45-70 for reduced loads it's not position sensitive and needs no fillers, I've used it extensively in the 45-120 BC with load densities at less than 50%, still double checking to avoid an over charge is important, one member here blew a 270 up using it, a double charge being the suspect.

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

gcrank1 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2013, 01:52:11 PM »

Unique has been around like forever, lots of data, lots of success. The primary advantage is that light loads of a fast powder gives one more reloads per 7000gr. (1#); you do the math on more grains of a slow powder. It is not 'the best powder' perhaps, but it has a track record and lots of guys have some. Yes, there are heavier loads than that 10.0-12.0 I mentioned, but my primary reason for that was to get safe, comfy, and likely accurate loads for some initial experience with the cartridge. A lot of fun shooting in a lot of 45-70s have been done with that load for a bunch of years.
Fillers and over-powder wads are another whole topic, and they are NOT the same thing.
There is good, hard documentation now that the use over over-powder wads in smokeless powder loads has resulted in what is called chamber rings. It is a pressure compression, at the position of the base of the bullet while in the cartridge, outward radially to create a 'ring' in the chamber neck. The results are cumulative and may not be noticed until you find hard extraction and the shiny ring on the case neck. At that point your rifle is basically ruined. I will no longer use that technique to 'hold the powder back to the primer'.
Fillers are, well, 'fillers'. A number of things have been used for fillers. They 'fill' the case from the powder level to the bullet base. There has been no documentation that I know of regarding this creating chamber rings. It may have issues with bottleneck cases. Fillers will add to ejecta weight and some may create more recoil. On light loads this may not amount to much.
To avoid messing about I would use the light charge, load it, then raise the muzzle to settle the powder back to the primer, lower to sight position and fire. I have chrono'ed some loads using this technique and got good numbers, less so with the powder all laying on the bottom and the worst with the powder to the bullet base.
After 30 some years of happily using Unique I needed to restock. A friend gifted me some Trail Boss to trial. I didnt buy any more Unique and use the TB in handgun, traditional straight rifle cases and recently bottlenecks. The load density is great, the velo's for my cast bullets fine and I am very satisfied. As always, YMMV.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:02:44 PM »

Some of my best days at the range or in the field are with the 45/70 loaded with 12g of Unique under a 405 cast bullet , you can just about shoot all day long and still be able to move the next morning , I have never found a reason to use fillers as it can be carried muzzle down for hours and just pull up and shoot . Thats the nice thing about Unique , it lights no matter were its at in the case .

stimpy

rawdog · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2013, 02:59:58 PM »

Thanks for the replies. I am understanding that consensus here is that light loadind density with Unique is ok, and fillers or wads are not rquired though some use wads.
I am also interested in eventually shoting BP and cast in this gun but will start with 30 factory rounds i bought, then do some smokeless and jacketed reloads at first, if I can ever find any powders on the shelf locally.... What i have will not go far in 45-70 cases. I learned about Trail Boss only recently and it looks very promising to me to get reasonable load density in that big case.
Tackleberry, I may have mis-used the term "fireform" but i was referring to the suggestion in the linked thread that for loading cast bullets, the case needs to have been fired so that the neck is expanded to chamber-neck size and then the largest diameter possible is loaded without the step of either full-resizing or neck-sizing. Thus the brass, originally at factory-spec dimension is fired and formed to chamber-neck dimensions before the first cast reload of a larger diameter bullet is attempted. I have never seen this procedure suggested before, but it seems sound as described by Gcrank1 in that thread.

Thanks again,

rawdog

gcrank1 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2013, 05:03:32 PM »

Filler is preferred over wads if you 'feel you must' top up that low density load of fast powder.
Trail Boss has a recommended start load of 70% of case volume to bullet base (way light load) on up to 100% without danger of overpressure. A decent middle ground is about 85%. There is NO danger of a double charge with TB and you can achieve pretty much of a black powder equiv. load full up, but no more. If you want more beans use a different rifle powder. TB is fine for me.
FLS or neck sizing only reduced the neck to less than jacketed bullet dia. then the expander ball broings the dia back up to hold a jacketed bullet unless you have a larger dia. cast bullet specific exp. ball. FWIW, IME, jacketed bullet dia. is not the dia. one wants for cast bullets. When you squeeze the right size cast bullet down while seating into a too small neck you have just undone what you want to do.

Flynmoose · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2013, 06:00:15 PM »

I have been using TrailBoss and 405gr Laser Cast bullets for a while now. I have no reason to change as I "plink" at swinging steel targets.
FM

theratdog · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2013, 07:50:53 PM »

trail boss is nice and no worry of over charge great stuff it doesn't hammer you.

rfd · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2013, 12:55:15 AM »

anyone know of a source for trail boss? please??

rawdog · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2013, 01:03:59 PM »

I have never yet used TrailBoss, but i have noticed the advertised claims and it sounds like more tha a few of you would corroborate that. My first reloads for 45-70 will use TB if I can find some... but right now all the local sources have been slammed, no powder, no primers, no boolits..... I would try to find some on the web but that hazmat fee is a bummer... maybe i should bite the boolit.
Does anyone have a problem with shooting blackpowder under a jacketed boolit, until i get up and running with casting? I think I anecdotally only notice cast boolits with the Holy Black in threads i have read... is there some good reason for this?

Still waiting for news on the 45-70 BC I ordered....

rawdog

rfd · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2013, 01:12:20 PM »

i made a couple dozen calls today to vendors around the country that rep imr powders and 4 had trail boss in stock but none are haz-mat licensed to ship. DANG!

i you search around you will find good boolits and primers, not all that hard. and plenty of starline brass as well.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2013, 01:17:41 PM »

I PMd you a source for Trailboss 5lb.

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2013, 01:46:22 PM »

Ive never done it, but I see no reason why you cant shoot jacketed with black. In fact, IIRC, a number of old military cartridges, inc. the very first 303Brit. used black with FMJs. You dont want to drive a jacketed bullet slow, they have more friction, thus less velo for the charge and you do not want one stuck in that barrel. A full BP charge would be fine, as will a 100% to the bullet base load of TB (mine, with a 405gr, cast over 100% TB chrono's about 1250fps; a BP eqiuv. load).

rfd · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2013, 01:54:37 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on February 13, 2013, 01:17:41 PM

I PMd you a source for Trailboss 5lb.

Tim

tim, you da man, sir!!!! THANK YOU!!!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** February 14, 2013, 05:00:31 AM »

It would be nice if they actually had it in stock, it's marked backordered now, hopefully you got the last one!

Tim

rfd · « **Reply #16 on:** February 14, 2013, 07:25:38 AM »

i called them and yup, i did manage to snag the very last of their trail boss. miracles do occur at rare moments.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 14, 2013, 07:41:24 AM »

Ya Hoo!!!

Didja go buy a lottery ticket too?

rfd · « **Reply #18 on:** February 14, 2013, 07:44:34 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on February 14, 2013, 07:41:24 AM

Ya Hoo!!!
Didja go buy a lottery ticket too?

the wife did!

jparedes · « **Reply #19 on:** February 14, 2013, 08:43:46 AM »

Jacketed 45-70 "boollits" are very expensive. Better get cast ones. They are a tad cheaper to buy and you get excellent precision. I get mine from Montana Bullets and I'm very happy with their quality and service.

geezerbiker · « **Reply #20 on:** February 14, 2013, 05:11:16 PM »

Midway has Starline .45-70 brass in stock again. I ordered a hundred pieces but when I went to add a Lee mold to the order, they were out of both sizes I want... Other than a dove tail sight plug, everything else on my want list was out of stock.

Tony

rfd · « **Reply #21 on:** February 14, 2013, 11:42:01 PM »

fwiw - i just got 250 starline brass 45-70 from track of the wolf for $119.58 shipped and insured. they also have all lee moulds in stock for $20.

rawdog · « **Reply #22 on:** February 15, 2013, 11:52:19 AM »

I lucked out; went down to Austin on the very day that McBride's got in a shipment of powder! Got some TB for 45-70 and some IMR3031 for 30-30. No primers though...

Then went down to Cabelas and found some Winchester 150gr PP .308 spitzers (been using Rem's CL and Hornady's IL similar spitzer bullets for 30-30, but will try this) and remington jacketed 405gr for 45-70 at $39.99 for 100. My quick look at Montana Bullets the other day tells me that was a steal by comparison (~$30 for 50bullets). Still no primers.

I am getting low on primers, have to fix that asap. Or, I can dust off one of my ML flintlocks!

rawdog

nanuk-O-dah-Nort · « **Reply #23 on:** February 15, 2013, 04:53:07 PM »

Quote from: rawdog on February 12, 2013, 09:30:18 AM

...... I have typically seen load density recommendations of no less than 60% to avoid detonation especially wth faster powders. Since i used to use Unique for a pistol powder, my recollection is tthat it is pretty fast compared to rifle powders.
....
rawdog

just to answer your first post:

detonation is a concern regarding SLOW powders, not easily lit fast powders.

more so even with slow ball powders.

I have never read where a SEE occurred using fast pistol/shotgun powders, even without fillers/wads

and pay attention to what gcrank1 said about wads and fillers.

they are NOT the same thing.

NEVER put a non porous item against the powder, to hold it down on the primer, leaving an airspace between it and the bullet. That is the recipe for a damaged chamber.

do some googling about SEE or Secondary Explosion Effect, and Detonation.

also read on Wads... You'll notice that most who discuss wads are filling up the whole case with them.

There is a place for fillers and wads in the reloading aspect of shooting, but it deserves its own thread.

until you understand the risks, and why/what is going one, I'd suggest you hold off on them.