.30-40 Krag? Or a .30-40 AI Krag? Anyone actually done one in a Handi?

[Couger]

 
 
Was looking recently at the .30-40 and .30-40 Ackley Improved.
 
 
 
Has anyone actually done one in a Handi-Rifle?  ('why' in case someone wants to destroy this thread?  Because its a rimmed, VOLUMINOUS case!    ).

[tdoor]

I built one off of a 30-30 barrel,  works good got better vel than in my 1898 springfield just wish the barrel was a little longer

[RPRNY]

Do not have a Handi 30-40 but do have a sporterized Krag. The 30-40 is an interesting cartridge, ballistically similar to the .303 British and ideally suited, with its long neck, to cast bullets. While an AI would increase case capacity and velocity, the 30-40 isn't really a velocity round to my mind; it's a mid range big bullet round, again ideally suited for cast. The Lyman 311284 (210 gr) was designed for the Krag in 1902 and used by the US Palma team that year. At @20 BHN gas checked and fired at 1850 - 1900 is a very accurate and well expanding bullet. In the Handi, you could push a @ 25 BHN to around 2200 equally well. Much above that, cast just doesn't seem to do well, probably due to obturation and deformation in the chamber at ignition pressures.

If shooting jacketed, the RN 220 would be my choice, although I have had good results with Hornady 150 gr SP over Varget. An AI would increase initial pressures (no issue in a Handi) and may be even better for the medium slow powders like 4895 4350, but the short 30-30 barrel might not give you a clean/full burn. 4198 - 3031 might be quite good in an AI and if you found a jacketed 180gr that worked well, 2600 fps seems extremely doable giving you .308 Win performance with a rimmed cartridge. 3,000 with a 150 gr may even be possible but it ignores the benefits of that lovely long neck.

Were I doing it, I would stick with 30-40 original and dial in accuracy with the likes of the 311284 (210gr) or 311299 (220gr), set it up with good aperture sights and a BC stock set for a proper gentleman's deer stalker.

[gcrank1]

+1 all that sound advice for one  rifle.

[Dinny]

I have a 30-30 to 30-40K conversion planned. The AI does bring quite a bit more velocity, but that's that what I'm looking for. Like the others have mentioned, it is a superb cast shooter and I will likely shoot heavy bullets at moderate velocity and be very happy with it.

Thanks, Dinny

[gomerdog]

I had a 30/30 barrel rechambered to 30/40 Krag a few years ago. With various powder and bullet combinations it accurate. I am especially interested in a 165 gr. load with Nosler BT's. IMR 4350 seems to be a good powder choice. For low velocity cast loads, I haven't found any powder better than Unique. I haven't killed anything with it yet, but hope to rectify that this year maybe. It is fun to shoot, but not any more so than my 30/30 Handi.

[Goatwhiskers]

Well, I apologize, it's not a Handi.  Mine is a Martini-Enfield with a 26" Ackley tube.  49gr of H4831 pushing a Hornady 180gr RN gives me 2200 IIRC and stays under 1/2" at 100.  Just getting started with cast after all these years and it sure looks promising with RD311165 and some 5744 powder.  If you go with the cartridge you will really enjoy it.  GW

[AtlLaw]

I can't remember,    has anybody here rechambered a 30-30 to 30-40 themselves?     By hand?   

[Winter Hawk]

I can't remember,    has anybody here rechambered a 30-30 to 30-40 themselves?     By hand?   

Richard,

I did, sort of.  Rented the reamer from 4-D, everything went smoothly until I got to the rim cut.  Then it wouldn't go any further no matter what I did.  4-D said I messed up their cutter and charged me for a new one.  However, they had me ship the barrel to them and they completed the reaming for me.  Kind of spendy education, though.   

-Kees-

[Couger]

 
Just now logging in with all these replies ..... THANK YOU everyone! 
 
Many good things have been said and contributed.  My interest in the Krag is for a HandiR in a "rimmed .30/06" (or approximately that performance). 
 
Actually according to a couple things I read from Parker Ackley himself, if a rifle is chambered in the Improved  Krag (with a 24-26 inch barrel),  performance would possibly even exceed .30/06 levels (with enough powder and modern pressure levels).  Maybe even approach .300 H&H performance?
 
I agree if the Krag was left as-is (or barrel in .30-30 was left as-is), both cartridges are outstanding for their original purposes and designs.  Both also do very well with cast boolits and appropriate amounts of correct powders too.
 
Was reading the first of two articles from Ken Waters ("Pet Loads") about the Krag and lead boolits, and even at modest velocities, it penetrates as good as anything else in its day, including the most popular 35, 40, or 45 (and other) calibers known in the first 2 decades of the 20th century (before world war one).
 
However. Waters also did a 2nd updated Krag article with a more modern propellents and bullets (and a recently manufactured modern copy of a M1895 Winchester.  Waters also used a High-wall single rifle as well, with a 27-28" bbl).  Even [just] approaching 45,000 PSI or so, the modern Krag easily memicks .308 Winchester performance (or however close to a '06). 
 
However, using newly manufactured [recent] Winchester cases in an improved Krag loaded to modern pressures ...... Remains to be seen and exploited!  (with a longer than 22" barrel, according to Waters' data)
 
Of course a Handi-Rifle in a Krag made from a modified .30-30 tube would still be several inches shorter than either of Water's test rifles as well.

BTW, a show-stopper to creating an [improvised] Handi Krag (improved or standard),
 
might be found when modifying a .308W Handi to become a .307 Winchester instead!  (along with its rim) 
 
Consider, if a Handi-rimmed .307 was a solid success and matched the most robust (and maximum) .308 Winchester performances, would trying to squeeze however much more feet-per-second velocity out of a 22inch tube .....  be worth the trouble? 
 
I'll contemplate "that bridge" if I ever get to that point,     rather than speculate for now.
 
However, one huge advantage the Krag's enjoy (standard and A.I.) over the .308 and .307 Winchesters, is their  much longer case necks for the reloader and boolit caster!   

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I think the 307R conversion has been done by several on here.

[Couger]

I think the 307R conversion has been done by several on here.

Its been done by a least a couple folks here, and something I'll probably do before I'm ready to consider the Krag project.  Of course that will be the biggest 'determiner' before I proceeded modifying a .30-30 barrel.
 
I could also see keeping the .30-30 barrel as-is, for use as a deer stand barrel, only!

[Darreld Walton]

I've only played with the Krag carbine and rifles for the .30-40.  Best all around load for them that I've found pretty much duplicates the original military load of a 220 gr. round nose at around 21-2300 fps.  I get that kind of velocity spread between the carbine and rifle length barrels with 4350.  My carbine has been rebarreled with what started out as a new-in-the-wrap M1917 "Enfield" barrel, complete with left-hand twist.  I had one sporterized rifle with an M1903 Springfield (SA-1944 barrel stamp) with offset scope mount that gave "one hole" performance at a hundred yards with the above load.
Doing a Krag on a Handi shouldn't be that much of a challenge, though a longer barrel would probably give you the velocity you're after without having to "improve" the case.  I've pretty much decided that if I want .308 or .30-06 performance, then those are the chambering I need.  IF a fella had a reliable source of .307 Winchester/Marlin rimmed cases that will handle .308 Win. pressures, then it would make more sense for a handi, and just live with the 'short' neck.   
 

[reloaderman]

The 30-40 is a great round for the reloader! I load a 30-30 , 170 bullet  for my deer load, and it's  BANG......Plop! My Ruger #3 likes the Lee 180 RN @ 1800fps, for great 100 yd accuracy, and it did a nice job on the one deer I shot with it.
Good luck with your project.

[gcrank1]

The 30-06 has proven itself many years ago as a jacketed or lead bullet shooter. IIRC, the 30-40 Krag was, early on at the National Matches, competitive against the 30-06.
I, and many others have satisfied ourselves that the 30-40 is a fine cast bullet shooter, too.
All that said, I guess where Im going with this is that one could do worse than determine just what your objective is; ie, do you want a fine cast bullet caliber, then do either but Id lean to the Krag, even though the 30-30 will do as well.
Many barrels dont shoot cast and jacketed to their best if the barrel is not cleaned between the swap. Too much trouble for me.......and my mild cast loads shoot well enough that with my self imposed range limit for WI Whitetail deer are within the performance capabilities required (one kills with the placement anyway).
If you are going to shoot (expensive) jacketed bullets and want to squeeze out the last bit o' velo. then I guess it should be something like the 300Win Mag, but too much for the H&R platform so go 30-06.
I could be wrong, but in the real world of high performance jacketed bullets I dont believe a handloaded 30-40 Krag can equal a handloaded 30-06.

[Dinny]

Just today I opened a box from Reed's Ammo containing 100 new pieces of Prvi 7x65R brass. My plan is to run them through a 30-06 sizer before running them through the 35 Whelen sizer. I'm certain a 30-06 Handi barrel could be modified to accept the rimmed brass.

Thanks, Dinny

[Couger]

Just today I opened a box from Reed's Ammo containing 100 new pieces of Prvi 7x65R brass. My plan is to run them through a 30-06 sizer before running them through the 35 Whelen sizer. I'm certain a 30-06 Handi barrel could be modified to accept the rimmed brass.  Thanks, Dinny

Please let us all know how your findings go!  Esp if you're successful. 
 
GCrank,  thanks for your comments!  My ultimate goal is to come up with a rimmed barrel that gives .30/06 performance, but will also shoot cast boolits satisfactorily.
 
My interest in cast boolits isn't like some guys, who simply love shooting self-made boolits! (nothing wrong with that or their "hobby?")
 
Like my pops who was sometimes more "pragnatic" than fun, I want a functional "shooter" for in case that day comes when the frikkin FEDCOATS (or U.N. types) try to neutralize the 2ndA and Bill of Rights!  Thats the bottom-line reason I have molds.
 
But in the process to develope cast loads if I have fun, I'll certainly enjoy it!  Again however, thanks for your comments and from everyone else. 

[Dinny]

Just today I opened a box from Reed's Ammo containing 100 new pieces of Prvi 7x65R brass. My plan is to run them through a 30-06 sizer before running them through the 35 Whelen sizer. I'm certain a 30-06 Handi barrel could be modified to accept the rimmed brass.  Thanks, Dinny

Please let us all know how your findings go!  Esp if you're successful. 

I will, however, it may be some time before I get everything done and shoot it. Having two children is not twice the work of having only one. I would venture to say the workload has quadrupled.

Thanks, Dinny

[RPRNY]

Couger - I understand your objective and reasoning but I have my doubts about the outcome. I am not as knowledgeable as many others here about cast bullets but based on my experience and things I have read, including Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading " (1937). Sharpe wrote when cast bullets were still a norm and at a time when the 30-40 and 30-30 were mainstream standards and the 30-06 was still the rising star state -of -the -art.

I just don't think you are going to get cast bullets to perform at 30-06 full charge levels. That's 165 gr at 2800 fps through 200 gr at 2550. First, leading is going to be a big issue at those velocities. So you're going to go for a very hard bullet upwards of 28 BHN. Now you have a bullet that may lead the barrel more slowly but will shatter on impact. Your invaders won't need body armor, a leather jerkin will do. If you need a flat shooting round out to several hundred yards, you need jacketed bullets to handle the velocities and perform on arrival.

By all means experiment. Perhaps a BHN 25 bullet at 2500 will work, but experience suggests it won't.

On the other hand, we know that weighty, slow, softer lead bullets wreak havoc on tissue.  A @ BHN 22 220 gr bullet at 2200 fps (a classic Lyman 311299 Load) will accurately do a lot of damage out to 250 yards.  You may well be able to stretch that with a good 180gr design and load combinatiin. But if you want flat shooting out to 400 yards you'll need jacketed bullets, in my opinion.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

[Couger]

.... I just don't think you are going to get cast bullets to perform at 30-06 full charge levels .....

I agree with you!  Sorry I didn't specifiy that ".30/06 performance" would be with jacketed bullets!
 
And you're correct that cast slugs don't do well much past 2200fps, unless paper-patched (and then only until 2400-2600fps is reached).
 
When loading for the '06 btw, 2700-2800fps is attainable with 180 grain pills, and 165's at 2850-2900+ isn't unrealistic (with jacketed pills!)

[RPRNY]

.... I just don't think you are going to get cast bullets to perform at 30-06 full charge levels .....

 Sorry I didn't specifiy that ".30/06 performance" would be with jacketed bullets!
 

When loading for the '06 btw, 2700-2800fps is attainable with 180 grain pills, and 165's at 2850-2900+ isn't unrealistic (with jacketed pills!)

Okay, we're on the same page. I don't know if there's enough case capacity to get those numbers out of even an AI 30-40, is there?  But factory ammo levels should be reachable. Make sure to share results as that will be pretty cool. 

[quickdtoo]

The 30-40AI has been the topic of discussion prolly as much as the 30-40 has, for the cost of a rechamber it has excellent return on your dollars in performance compared to most any ackley chambering, in Fred's chart, only the 25-35 has more % improvement.  Ammoguide lists nominal velocity with 180gr bullets @ 2920fps, 60.9gr water capacity, they list the 30-06 nominal velocity as 150gr @ 2910fps and 67.1gr water.

Tim

http://www.4-dproducts.com/ackleychart.php

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,201944.msg1099046133.html#msg1099046133

[Tackleberry]

I re-chambered my .30-30 handi-Rifle barrel to a .30-40 Krag (standard) about a year ago. The chambering went without issues...I think its a Clymer piloted rig. The main chamber went easy , and the rim took some time but cut right in. Took it to the range and it fired nicely...although it did stick cartridge enough where they would not eject (they can out about halfway) when the action was opened.

I made a chamber polishing mandrel out of a shell and polished iot up with 600 grit action lapping compound until the shell ejects just fine. I think the quality of the cut is all important. Killed a nice Kentucky doe shooting up hill, at about 160 yards. I was using a Nosler ballistic tip 150 grain .30 cal bullet and H4350 powder....she shoots great...if I were to do it over again,,,I'd chamber for .30-40 Krag Improved for that extra little bit of velocity...

I understand that the limiting factor on the .30-40 Krag (when not fired in a Krag) is the case. So although i havn't really worked up any hotter loads for this, I beleive they can be bumped nicely up from a standard safe Krag load. The Krag load listed really are all pretty conservative. The Handi is a sturdy little rifle...and if can handle .270 and .30-06 loads, it can surely handle a little hotter .30-40 loads limited by the case.


Pictured is my  little green machine..30-40 Krag in a home painted stock. Olive green Krylon painted with black web paint over the top, topped by Krylon clear Poly.  My other barrel for this rifle is a .22 Hornet.

[gcrank1]

Nice rig there, and good description of process.
IMHO the case is not your limiting factor, once chambered and fired it expands to the walls and has the backthrust, but all that is being contained by the rifle standing breech and the barrel. The case really only exists to be a powder/bullet container until ignition.

[clearwater]

I've had one for )30-40) several years. I just put a small 1.5-4.5 scope on it. Need to sight it in.


170 grain cast bullets with 2400 powder shoot about 1600 fps and at 50 yards keeps them in an inch.


With 220 grain Hornady Round nose it gets 2100 fps, 150 grain noslers 2700 fps. Use IMR 4350 for those two.


Am going to try some 168 grain Ballistics Tips next.

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I just don't think you are going to get cast bullets to perform at 30-06 full charge levels. That's 165 gr at 2800 fps through 200 gr at 2550. First, leading is going to be a big issue at those velocities. .....
By all means experiment. Perhaps a BHN 25 bullet at 2500 will work, but experience suggests it won't.
....

on another forum some experimentation is going on and there are two interesting findings.

1) Cast bullet velocity limit appears to be tied to RPM's and not FPS.   there are some guys getting well over 2500fps
2) alloy.   some are adding copper to the alloy, and getting jacketed speeds with cast plain based bullets.   GC bullet are reaching 2900fps or so, IIRC.

also, leading is often a result of less than perfect fit, and inadequate lubricant.

....
And you're correct that cast slugs don't do well much past 2200fps, unless paper-patched (and then only until 2400-2600fps is reached).
 

several reloaders I know of, are getting 3000fps with PP, and a moderately hard alloy.

I look forward to their experiences with the copper alloy and PP speeds nearing 3300fps+ with the varmint rounds.

[flmason]

2) alloy.   some are adding copper to the alloy, and getting jacketed speeds with cast plain based bullets.   GC bullet are reaching 2900fps or so, IIRC.

Tell me about copper alloyed with lead. Know of any interesting info on the web about this? How's the terminal performance... decent? Or does it just basically end up the equivalent of a cast FMJ bullet... laser beam effect on the receiving end?

[quickdtoo]

Search engines are your friend. 

Tim

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?176886-Cast-bullets-with-copper-enriched-alloy

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?175796-Add-copper-to-your-alloy-for-tougher-CBs

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further