Video of the inside of my CVA Frontier barrel

[strangefire]

If you have read my last thread, most of you know that I'm new to muzzle loading. http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,278765.0.html  It's my new hobby, how long it last is unknown but I hope it last a long time. I am having fun learning about muzzle loading
    Anyways My first smoke pole I bought on GB about 5 years ago is a CVA Frontiear. I bought it cheap and used so I could learn from it, screw it up in some way and not be out a bunch of money. I set it in the corner of my gunroom and forgot about it once I visualy inspected it after I received it in the mail 5 years ago.
    And then came the Traditions Buckskinner and that happen to be my first smoke pole that I ever shot. Yesterday I dicided to find the CVA and see if I could shoot it.
      I come to find out it's loaded and who knows how long it was loaded before I purchased it. I pulled the RB out, gave it a bath and shot this video of what the inside of the barrel looks like.
      You can see the corrosion in the breach area is bad and the rust on the lands and valleys is not good but not that bad in my opion. I think it still can be a shooter for somebody to play with.
      My question is, what do you guys think? I know it's a good wall hanger but can it be a shooter again?

Video;  http://youtu.be/zMZAtnMYoso

[AtlLaw]

DARN!  I didn't know CVA made microgroove barrels!   
 
Anyway, on the barrel alone, I'd shoot it ina heartbeat.  Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber  , what would give me pause is the breachplug area.     I wouldn't shoot it until I pulled that plug and satisfied myself it was safe.
 
'course those CVA plugs ain't the easiest thing to remove, being interlocked and all...

[strangefire]

What I would like to do is make it a canoe gun by cutting the barrel off just above the breech plug and threading a new plug but I can't find a new plug and I don't think I can save the old one, I do have the means to thread the barrel.
My next question is, where can I find a new breech plug? Does NFA rules apply to muzzle loaders if I cut the barrel down to less then 16 inches if I have too?

[AtlLaw]

Track of the Wolf is one of the better suppliers of BP stuff. 
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Index.aspx

There are several others, look around.  Google is your friend!   

After looking at your vid, cutting off the breach plug area of the barrel was my first thought.  Just eliminate that possible, and dangerous, problem area.

After that it's just a matter of picking a plug: one tall enough to be just higher then the top flat so you can file it down, and broad and long enough to cover the old tang inlet area.  Then all you have to do is tap & thread the breach end of the barrel to match the plug thread pitch and fit the plug.  No problemo!   

Well, actually You would also have to inlet the tang, locate, tap and thread the powder drum and locate, tap and thread the nipple hole.
 
It's in those areas that I can forsee possible problems...     Mostly locating the center point of the powder drum on the barrel.

It would seem to me, and I'm at work so I can't check my old CVA Mtn. Rifle, that the positioning of the drum so that it's relationship to the hammer is correct might take some careful consideration.  Remember, the CVA's plug is drilled out in the center and the center line of the drum is located as to end up in that hole in the plug.

Generally, the plug should have 1/2 inch (+/-) of thread inside the barrel.  The center of the flash hole is generally 1/8 inch (+/-) ahead of that.  Naturally the lock has to be positioned so that the nose of the hammer is centered on the nipple in the drum (after you locate, drill and thread the drum for the nipple).
 
In your case the lock is already positioned and... it also may have a cutout for the drum.  If so, the cutout fixes your drum position with relationship to the lock.

Now, if the CVA plug is threaded, say... 3/4 inch into the barrel, and the hole in the plug is 1/4 inch deep, you may not have to do much if any adjustment of the flash hole location outside the nominal 1/2 and 1/8 inch formula.  Other then that you are going to have to play with the positioning of the drum, fore and aft, to get it to line up with the hammer nose.
 
Or, you may have to set the barrel back in the stock to position the drum correctly... 
 
Left and right alignment is done by the positioning of the nipple on the drum.

Like I said, no problemo!   
 
Lemme see here...    Is all that right?     Well, if it ain't it oughta be!   
 
Tell ya what... cummon over to my house and we'll take hacksaw firmly in hand!     Sounds like fun and heck, it ain't my barrel!   
 

[strangefire]

Richard
      The research I've done is telling me "don't even bother". Shoot it the way it is which I think would be safe enough or buy another used barrel from ebay or GB.
      If I cut the back of the barrel off a new breech plug would need to be rethreaded for another breech plug. My CVA has an interlocking breech plug/bolster system, the hole for the bolster would have to be drilled and tapped, then the bolster is threaded into place,  then the passage from the bolster into the chamber/breech is drilled from the  front (down the barrel). On top of all that the wedge pin lug and rib would need to be refitted too.
      I think I'll load 100 grains of RS powder, RB and tie it to a tree using the old string trigger set up and shoot it a few times and see what happens.

[hillbill]

i worked on a inline a few years ago that had been shot with pyrodex and left uncleaned for a couple years.i dont remember the brand but it was a cheaper one.it looked bad. washed it out and scrubbed it with everything i could think of.the bore looked bad.i didnt hold much hope for it. the kid that owned it wanted to hunt with it.
 
we took it out and shot it at 50 yrds and was surprised with 2 inch groups with real black and his sabots and bullets.we did not have time to work up a real load for it but it shot way better than i thought it would for the bore condition.

[Swampman]

Just shoot it, it ain't hurt.  If the barrel was clean when it was loaded there wouldn't even be any corrosion since unburned powder isn't corrosive.

[Ranger99]

jmho, i didn't see anything real
bad until you got down to the
breech area 


the other can be taken out with
a bronze brush and some patches
with jb bore paste used with care.
just me, i wouldn't try to unbreech
that dude just for that. if your
real wary of it, sell it or give it away 
after i got through and douched it
out real good, i'd take it out and put
a box of patched round balls with
wonder 1000 lube. if it's not cutting
patches, it ain't hurt. (good patches .015 or better)


good luck

[necchi]

I didn't see anything bad period. The area of your concern is the combustion area anyways and doesn't have any affect to the projectile.
You can nix the idea of pulling the CVA breech plug, you remember the photo I posted to your other thread?
Those things are put together by cross drilling and index boring. They are made to withstand some serious pressures and stay together. If you start pulling things that have been cross drilled you'll destroy the integrity of the existing threads.
 
Boring and tapping a barrel for a plug is a little more involved than just running a thread tap down the barrel, the bottom of the hole needs a face for the matching face of the breech plug to fit against, then everything needs to be measured and fit so the flats line up,, ect,,,
 
Can it be a shooter?  Well it probably already is.
 
There's more to finding the accurate load for these things than just dropping a greasy patched ball on top of some powder and touching it off.
 
There is a full load development regime that includes the powder charge, size of ball, thickness of the patch and the lubrication properties of said patch. A well as a consistent fired bore condition and loading routine.
If you change one of the above 4 variables or allow the fired bore fouling condition to continually degrade with a poor loading routine,  then your point of impact and the size of your group will change. If you really want a Traditional muzzle loading rifle to show you it's most accurate load combo you have to put in the time to find it. 150-200 shot's with experimentation should get you close. If you don't want to do that, then maybe traditional open sight shooting isn't your game.
 
That other thread about the "Canoe gun" is interesting, too bad the idea of a canoe gun is a romantic 20th century fantasy. They did not have or make short barreled guns to use in canoes.
Chopping several inches off a CVA Frontier isn't going to make an interesting accurate gun, all you'll have is a short barreled novelty with no front sight that'll take up less space on the wall.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[strangefire]

Yea.....I shot it this evening, 3 times and it shot fine. The first time there was a slight delay between the cap going off and the charge firing the ball, like a milla second if that or a blink of a eye fast. Kinda like a flint lock going off. Other then that it's fine.
      I feel better knowing that the Frontier is going to be a shooter thanks to every body's help. I really appreciate the advice that is given to me.     
 
      I like what necchi said about "finding the accurate load", I'm looking forward to playing with my Frontier and Buckskinner rifles experimenting to find the best load for each gun.
      The weather is going to start getting better and the days are getting longer = more time for shooting....  :-)
                       Thanks Again, Chris

[necchi]

You really need to find an experienced local shooter to lend a hand.
This over the internet stuff only goes so far, a "hands on" experience can turn things around in a single session.

[strangefire]

necchi, you worry to much........ I respect your concerns and have been doing a lot of research on shooting muzzle loaders and have been very cautious. I've been shooting all week-end with both guns. Everything is fine and I'm getting the feel for black powder. I'm in no way a expert with muzzle loading but I'm having fun and being safe.        I bought another muzzle loader from GB a week or so ago and it's being shipped as of now. I was going to wait before I say anything to see if muzzle loading is something I was going to like or not. Well, I like it and I might as well ask for advice about muzzle loading shotguns before I start to load it and pull the trigger. GB item #  335984663  Thanks guys

[necchi]

I ain't worried, you sound like a big boy.
It's just that trying to work through rookie issues (like cleaning) over the WWW can be time consuming, when one short session with an experienced shooter can cover hours worth of electronic data sharing.
 
I wish you luck Sir, I'm done.

[JonnyReb]

  Been enjoying the thread and thought i'd just jump in to thank you for the claustraphobic vid and to welcome you to the fold. Black powder is for some reason, my final destination after a lifetime of smokeless. Something about that stuff i just can't quit. Look forward to more of your posts,  j

[strangefire]

Thanks J, As soon as my shotgun arrives and I give it a good look over I'm going to shoot a video inside of the barrels and post it here, should be here Thursday.