H&R model 155 Shikari (need clarification)

[Hskrvern]

I just picked up a Shikari 45/70 in dang near unused condition and understand that these old boys are laid back and can't take the high strung loads.  However, I've read three different pressures for 'em at 18k cup, 21k cup, and 28k cup as a max load.  I have a loading in mind from doubletap ammo that lists the following load.

A 45-70 load that will deliver superior penetration on big game and remain safe to shoot through all guns chambered in     45-70 (except the old trap-door style).  This load runs at 25,000psi yet has the ballistics found in much higher pressure cartridges.  Deer, elk, moose, hogs, and bear will not like this one!

 Caliber : .45-70 Government

 Bullet : 400gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check

 Ballistics : 1810fps - 2914 ft./lbs. - 22.0" bbl. Marlin

If the max is 28k cup as some believe this would be a safe load, however d.t. doesn't believe so.  I don't reload so I'm having a hard time finding ammo that's hard cast.  I've found some winchester supreme with the nosler 405s that are at 1400 that look good but I would really like to have a hard cast round for Utah elk.

[zero]

I'd steer clear of it. The newer sb1 would handle it but the shikari i believe is made with a weaker cast frame and should be kept to trapdoor loads. There's alot to be said of the old trapdoor power though, if you can find good loads for it. I imagine alot of manufacturers are skittish about saying loads are safe for guns as old as those

[wolverine_1]

I have one and have tried to stay up on this topic.  The pressure issue I can't address, but everyone seems to agree that they shouldn't be pushed beyond what a trap door could handle.  The issue seems to be that they were built on cast shotgun frames.  That's the best I can do on the information.  Good luck.

[Smokin Joe]

They're just fine with any generally accepted Trapdoor load; those producing less than 28,000 CUP.

I have owned and shot one since the mid 70's and it still works great. I will not publish any loads here, but suffice it to say that I'm a life long Elmer Keith fan and shot his favorite 400-405 gn load all the time.

No transfer bar, either!

[garbhead]

you could always put the barrel on an SB2....

[Smokin Joe]

you could always put the barrel on an SB2....

Nope; the Shikari has a brazed lug, not welded.

[gcrank1]

The original ballistics of the 45-70 has accounted for how much large game on several continents for how long now? If you want something more than the 405ish @ 1280ish fps make an Express Load with a lighter bullet (350ish) up to about 1450fps and have at it.
My guess is that if you shot some of those loads you mention (in a newer model) that you would not be liking them as much as you think.

[bikerbeans]

Hskrvern,
 
The shikari underlug is silver soldered.  The old H&R soldered lug barrels can fit on newer HR1871 frames and new barrels can fit on the old H&R cast iron receivers.  I have a late 2000 vintage 20ga VR TDC barrel on a pre t-bar receiver and it works fine.   I have installed the old silver solder shotgun barrels on both SB1s and SB2s, without any problems.  You still have to fit them of course.
BTW, welcome to the Shikari club.    I have a 44M that I really like and I am waiting on my FFL to call when my 45-70 arrives (soon I hope ).  I also have a 50-70 Shikari, but it is a clone.  Has a Shikari takeoff stock set and the cleaning rod.  It is a modified 50cal Huntsman. 
 
BB
 

[dodd3]

They're just fine with any generally accepted Trapdoor load; those producing less than 28,000 CUP.

I have owned and shot one since the mid 70's and it still works great. I will not publish any loads here, but suffice it to say that I'm a life long Elmer Keith fan and shot his favorite 400-405 gn load all the time.

No transfer bar, either!

joe you are rite on the 28000cup but wrong on the no transfer bar, if you look at the shikari the hammer does not go all the way down until you pull the trigger if you have the gun unloaded and the hammer  not at full cock it does not touch the firering pin try to push the hammer forword  it wont go until you pull the trigger it was some sort of internal block which was released when the trigger was pulled. i had one in 45/70  mine was the carbine one 24" barrel wish i never got rid of it.
Bernie

[petemi]

If I bought a Shikari, I'd use it for trap door level loads.  I have a SB2 .45-70.  If I didn't have it, I would put the Shikari barrel on a SB2 frame and worry about the forend stud snapping off when it did....if it did.  I don't own a Shikari or a B.C. .45-70 because I'm old and tired of long barrels. and can't use iron sights.

Pete

[gcrank1]

Well then Pete! The 24" UH 45-70 is right up your alley.......scope only too and the weight 'right between your hands'. Im not a thumbhole stock guy so mine wears the UV cin. lam. wood now, but I have the TDC and BC as options as the mood moves me.
Still, it ain't no lightweight........in spite of that big hole.

[petemi]

If I do another .45-70, it's gonna be a shorty.  I'll probably keep the 22 incher until I know if it works or not.

Pete

[quickdtoo]

They're just fine with any generally accepted Trapdoor load; those producing less than 28,000 CUP.

I have owned and shot one since the mid 70's and it still works great. I will not publish any loads here, but suffice it to say that I'm a life long Elmer Keith fan and shot his favorite 400-405 gn load all the time.

No transfer bar, either!

joe you are rite on the 28000cup but wrong on the no transfer bar, if you look at the shikari the hammer does not go all the way down until you pull the trigger if you have the gun unloaded and the hammer  not at full cock it does not touch the firering pin try to push the hammer forword  it wont go until you pull the trigger it was some sort of internal block which was released when the trigger was pulled. i had one in 45/70  mine was the carbine one 24" barrel wish i never got rid of it.
Bernie

The Shikari was made from 1973-81, there were no transfer bars until late models, 1978>).

Tim

[cwlongshot]

Biker Beans and of coarse Timmy are correct!

The frames of these models are not the problem its the lug so putting them on a SB2 while stronger receiver you would still judishly need to stay with trap door level loadings.

I also have a had. 44 mag and 45/70 models and they where both realy models with the rebounding hammers.

Clean it up and enjoy your rifle, if you feel the need load it to the top of the 28K loadings and enjoy. (Carefully work up to them) with a bit of practice there ain't but a few critters you will not be adaquitely gunned for.

CW

[Hskrvern]

Biker Beans and of coarse Timmy are correct!

The frames of these models are not the problem its the lug so putting them on a SB2 while stronger receiver you would still judishly need to stay with trap door level loadings.

I also have a had. 44 mag and 45/70 models and they where both realy models with the rebounding hammers.

Clean it up and enjoy your rifle, if you feel the need load it to the top of the 28K loadings and enjoy. (Carefully work up to them) with a bit of practice there ain't but a few critters you will not be adaquitely gunned for.

CW

So its really that soldered lug that's the weak point and the receiver could actually take stronger than trapdoor loads?

[zero]

The original ballistics of the 45-70 has accounted for how much large game on several continents for how long now? If you want something more than the 405ish @ 1280ish fps make an Express Load with a lighter bullet (350ish) up to about 1450fps and have at it.
My guess is that if you shot some of those loads you mention (in a newer model) that you would not be liking them as much as you think.

I've got a couple books that list velocities with cast 500 grainers going up to 1450, 15 max, and with 325s hitting as much as 2000(speer 14) as safe for trapdoors, in a 26" barrel

In the text they list these loads as being kept to 21000 cup and below

[cwlongshot]

Biker Beans and of coarse Timmy are correct!

The frames of these models are not the problem its the lug so putting them on a SB2 while stronger receiver you would still judishly need to stay with trap door level loadings.

I also have a had. 44 mag and 45/70 models and they where both realy models with the rebounding hammers.

Clean it up and enjoy your rifle, if you feel the need load it to the top of the 28K loadings and enjoy. (Carefully work up to them) with a bit of practice there ain't but a few critters you will not be adaquitely gunned for.

CW

So its really that soldered lug that's the weak point and the receiver could actually take stronger than trapdoor loads?

YES, but exactly how much stronger than a current SB1 or how much less than a SB2 is another question entirely...

The receiver for my 44Mag spent some time with a 30-30 barrel with no issues.

CW

[bikerbeans]

Biker Beans and of coarse Timmy are correct!

The frames of these models are not the problem its the lug so putting them on a SB2 while stronger receiver you would still judishly need to stay with trap door level loadings.

I also have a had. 44 mag and 45/70 models and they where both realy models with the rebounding hammers.

Clean it up and enjoy your rifle, if you feel the need load it to the top of the 28K loadings and enjoy. (Carefully work up to them) with a bit of practice there ain't but a few critters you will not be adaquitely gunned for.

CW

So its really that soldered lug that's the weak point and the receiver could actually take stronger than trapdoor loads?

Hskrvern
 
A newer manufacture 45-70 on a SB2 can be had for about the same money as an old 45-70 Shikari on a cast iron frame.  If you want to shoot hotter than trapdoor 45-70 loads then I would buy a SB2 45-70.  An SB2 45-70 should be fine with Buffalo Bore ammo and IIRC they have the heavier cast boolits that your are interested in.  You can always sell/trade your Shikari to cover this "upgrade" as there are lots of folks around here who wouldn't mind adding a cleaning rod Handi to their collection.
 
BB

[Hskrvern]

Biker Beans and of coarse Timmy are correct!

The frames of these models are not the problem its the lug so putting them on a SB2 while stronger receiver you would still judishly need to stay with trap door level loadings.

I also have a had. 44 mag and 45/70 models and they where both realy models with the rebounding hammers.

Clean it up and enjoy your rifle, if you feel the need load it to the top of the 28K loadings and enjoy. (Carefully work up to them) with a bit of practice there ain't but a few critters you will not be adaquitely gunned for.

CW

So its really that soldered lug that's the weak point and the receiver could actually take stronger than trapdoor loads?

Hskrvern
 
A newer manufacture 45-70 on a SB2 can be had for about the same money as an old 45-70 Shikari on a cast iron frame.  If you want to shoot hotter than trapdoor 45-70 loads then I would buy a SB2 45-70.  An SB2 45-70 should be fine with Buffalo Bore ammo and IIRC they have the heavier cast boolits that your are interested in.  You can always sell/trade your Shikari to cover this "upgrade" as there are lots of folks around here who wouldn't mind adding a cleaning rod Handi to their collection.
 
BB

It just makes me feel a bit better about my purchase, I wasn't aware of the frame differences of the Shikari when I bought it and it just gives me a bit of a better feeling that the receiver is a tad stronger than I thought.

[gcrank1]

It wouldnt be a bad idea for you to check the barrel breech to standing breech clearance right now with feeler gauges and note it for future reference (I like to keep a notebook page for each firearm of specs as I find or make them). Most likely you will find your comfort zone below the heavy loads that 'may' be of question in that model. If you are one of those rare individuals that seems to have no recoil sensitivity then you may want to periodically check that clearance.
Also, if you are at all like any of us here, you wont be satisfied with only one..........I detect an SB-2 framed model in your future  anyway, start saving.......

[Smokin Joe]

It just makes me feel a bit better about my purchase, I wasn't aware of the frame differences of the Shikari when I bought it and it just gives me a bit of a better feeling that the receiver is a tad stronger than I thought.

It's also made with real rifling. Mine shoots cast bullets like a dream! 

[Hskrvern]

It wouldnt be a bad idea for you to check the barrel breech to standing breech clearance right now with feeler gauges and note it for future reference (I like to keep a notebook page for each firearm of specs as I find or make them). Most likely you will find your comfort zone below the heavy loads that 'may' be of question in that model. If you are one of those rare individuals that seems to have no recoil sensitivity then you may want to periodically check that clearance.
Also, if you are at all like any of us here, you wont be satisfied with only one..........I detect an SB-2 framed model in your future  anyway, start saving.......

Funny you mentioned picking up another 45 70, I may do that this weekend and use it as an elk rifle and have a 10 gauge barrel fitted for water foul.

[bikerbeans]

It just makes me feel a bit better about my purchase, I wasn't aware of the frame differences of the Shikari when I bought it and it just gives me a bit of a better feeling that the receiver is a tad stronger than I thought.

It's also made with real rifling. Mine shoots cast bullets like a dream! 

Joe,
 
Good to hear about the rifling and the cast boolits!  Can't wait for mine to get here so I can try out some 405g HBs.
 
BB

[quickdtoo]

Funny you mentioned picking up another 45 70, I may do that this weekend and use it as an elk rifle and have a 10 gauge barrel fitted for water foul.

They won't fit a 10ga barrel to an SB2 rifle frame, must be fitted to a 10ga SB2 shotgun frame, they aren't the same SB2 frame, 10ga/12ga USH requires a different frame that will accomodate the larger diameter chamber swell. 

Tim

[Hskrvern]

Funny you mentioned picking up another 45 70, I may do that this weekend and use it as an elk rifle and have a 10 gauge barrel fitted for water foul.

They won't fit a 10ga barrel to an SB2 rifle frame, must be fitted to a 10ga SB2 shotgun frame, they aren't the same SB2 frame, 10ga/12ga USH requires a different frame that will accomodate the larger diameter chamber swell. 

Tim

Well heck.

[gcrank1]

See, now you have to just get a dedicated 10ga.  , no big deal  (it'll never be over ).