Author Topic: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.  (Read 757 times)

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Offline powderman

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USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« on: March 05, 2013, 02:07:14 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM5ZPm71YPA
 
 
Simulated but some good pics and an impressive victory. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 04:07:08 PM »
Silly.


An Iowa against 20 IJN destroyers - figure sometime in 1944, when Iowa was in-theater? - would have left a sunk Iowa, I suspect. If all the DDs are, say, ten Kageros and ten Asashios... or the ten Fubukis in the 'simulation' - they can charge in at full throttle, maneuvering & shooting, and launch torps from waaaay out, then more closer. Iowa would find herself running, and if one of that flock of torps hit, the show is not over, but getting ready to end.

Iowa will sink some, but get skuppered in the end. If memory serves, she actually did fight a Japanese destroyer... Nowaki out-ran Iowa, who fired (in afternoon daylight) with a visual and radar solution, multiple salvoes... never hit her. Finally, Iowa gave up, rather than waste ammo as daylight faded.
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Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2013, 08:57:25 AM »
Silly.


An Iowa against 20 IJN destroyers - figure sometime in 1944, when Iowa was in-theater? - would have left a sunk Iowa, I suspect. If all the DDs are, say, ten Kageros and ten Asashios... or the ten Fubukis in the 'simulation' - they can charge in at full throttle, maneuvering & shooting, and launch torps from waaaay out, then more closer. Iowa would find herself running, and if one of that flock of torps hit, the show is not over, but getting ready to end.
No the Iowa would not have been sunk.
The Iowa in such an engagement could out five inch any destroyers without even using the sixteen inch canons.

U.S. Navy destroyers did engage Japanese battleships and while they did not sink the battleships the fierceness of their attacks caused the Japanese to turn away as they thought they were engaging a larger force.
 Otherwise the U.S. ships would have been wiped out.

Offline P.A. Myers

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 09:39:39 AM »
A massive torpedo attack would have been the end of the U.S.S. Iowa.  All classes of Japanese detroyers were rather thin-skinned and a few five inch hits should do it. However they had a lot of 'long lance' torpedos that were accurate, long range and had a big bang.  The Iowa would have been severely disabled, then sunk, dead in the water.

Surface fights never go as expected. The fog of war seems very thick on the water. However, in this isolated match-up twenty attackers would overwhelm the mighty Iowa.

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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 09:50:49 AM »
Quote
No the Iowa would not have been sunk.
Iowa banged away at Nowaki without any return fire, and never hit her in real life, Bob. I'm not saying the Jap DD squadron would have sunk her with gunfire... but all they need to do is get a couple torpedoes in, then close to add more. Iowas was very vulnerable to the Type 93 torpedoes (so was everything else afloat)
Quote
The Iowa in such an engagement could out five inch any destroyers without even using the sixteen inch canons.
You really think so? Twenty targets, approaching from how many diff bearings and how fast? A fast-moving destroyer was notoriously hard to hit with BB main battery. And what is the Iowa doing - steaming independently? Protecting a convey? And those destroyers can launch a dozen or so 24" torps each with a range of 20K yards at forty-some knots, with little wake. That's a lot of torpedoes in the water.
Quote
U.S. Navy destroyers did engage Japanese battleships and while they did not sink the battleships the fierceness of their attacks caused the Japanese to turn away as they thought they were engaging a larger force.
Ah yes, Samar.
 
Quote
Otherwise the U.S. ships would have been wiped out.
they'd have been wiped out if it weren't for Kurita's belief that he was up against a larger force, plus the level of air attacks he was getting from the various Taffys, and the fact that he was out of the fight in Yamato 10 miles away and felt he was losing control of his force.

Iowas were fine battleships, in some regards the best in the world... but they weren't superships. Really, they repeat South Dakotas with another 80,000hp and marginally better main battery.... not much value for 10K tons.[/quote]
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Offline Larry L

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 10:43:45 AM »
I doubt there was much in our Navy that could stand up to the Japanese hybrid Shimakazi destroyer. While a one of a kind but with more to be built, she could put 15 Long Lance torpedoes in the water and then reload in minutes. Obviously the 6- 5" guns were no match for the firepower of the Iowa, the Iowa would have had a hard time hitting the Shimakazi. She was highly maneuverable and top speed of 45 MPH would have had the Iowa chasing her as a target. The Long Lance torpedoes of the day could be launched in long range mode at a distance of almost 25 miles, just outside of the range of the Iowas guns.
Just a reminder to those who think a destroyer stands no chance against a battleship. It's a good thing our Navy in WWII didn't think like that. At the Battle of Leyte Gulf, our escort carriers were surprised by the Japanese Navy who could have easily sunk everything in sight. But our destroyers having no other choice, after laying down smoke, charged the Japanese against overwhelming odds and beat the Japanese fleet into utter confusion causing the Japanese to retreat thinking they were up against a much stronger force. Might wanna read about the incredible actions of the US destroyers USS Johnston and USS Samuel B Roberts. Huge heroes in my book. But there's a reason there weren't too many Naval engagements with the Japanese. Their Navy was a superior built Navy versus ours and the folks in charge on our side knew it.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 11:09:33 AM »
Here's the result of Type 93 ("Long Lance", a name Morrison came up with) on US cruisers in 1942, sustained during shoot-outs with Japanese destroyers - these were lucky to survive:


Minneapolis after Tossafaronga:






New Orleans:


Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2013, 06:01:43 PM »
A massive torpedo attack would have been the end of the U.S.S. Iowa.  All classes of Japanese detroyers were rather thin-skinned and a few five inch hits should do it. However they had a lot of 'long lance' torpedos that were accurate, long range and had a big bang.  The Iowa would have been severely disabled, then sunk, dead in the water.

Surface fights never go as expected. The fog of war seems very thick on the water. However, in this isolated match-up twenty attackers would overwhelm the mighty Iowa.

                                                                             P.A.
Torpedoes in the water and hitting are two different things.
The Iowa class battleships were the fastest ships in the water with the exception of destroyers.

Here is an assessment of torpedoes on an Iowa class battleship.

 Strafford Morss and Iowa Class Survivability 

  Commander Strafford Morss wrote an article in 1984 on the survivability of the Iowa class agaist modern weapons. It is to long to post everything but I will place in quotation marks those areas that are in the article. He first takes on to
 " The following evaluations are estimates of the damage to be expected by an Iowa class ship. The shock wave from an underbottom proximity explosion assumed to be at least 1000 pound TNT will be absorbed partially by the triple bottom structure. Forward in the area of Turrets 1 and 2, storerooms below the powder magazine could be flooded and flooding of the magazines less likely. Detonation of the powder magazines would be unlikely.
 
 Beneath the machinery spaces it is assumed the triple bottom will be breached. Depending on damage location one and no more than two machinery spaces would flood. With the alternating fire room engine room no more than one shaft would be affected. This was the intent of the designers.
 
 Farther aft the two skegs supporting the inboard shafts should help resist underbody damage however the outboard shafts remain vulnerable. The ship has a full void under the ram room three to six feet deep and has better protection than did Bismarck. Some directional control is possible with propellers alone. However the rudders are the most difficult area to protect in any ship.
 
 Forward of the armored citidel there would be concern as to the possible loss of her bow however some reinforcement of the bow has occured during the years of active service.
 
 A contact side explosion is expected to result in damage similar to that recieved by North Carolina.
 
 In no case should a single hit be fatal to the ship. but each subsequent hit will increase disruption and reduction in capability making it more difficult for the ship to continue." end quote.
 
 "Shape charges torpedoes are expected to breach the system but will cause less damage to shell plating. Shape charges torpedo warhead tests on a side protective system based on an aircraft carrier did produce fragments that penetrated the holding bulkhead however this system did not have an armored bulkhead. However, if within range of her objective, she should still be able to employ her missile and gun batteries even with grievous underwater damage" end quote.
 
 In no case are we speaking about the total structural failure of the ship. I would add shock damage could be considerable but she does have redundant systems so her ability to recover after damage remains high. Basically what happens is the triple keel absorbs as much of the energy it can and then breaks venting the explosion into the ship. A single torpedo can not damage enough of her structural strength so the keel is crushed locally with the sides of the ship holding her from hogging in any significant way. Her upper strength decks being so strong there is no significant sagging motion either. Therefore you get localized flooding similar to a side hit. This is why Arkansas remained intact despite a nuclear explosion below her keel. The keel is crushed all around her framing and side protection inwards into the hull. The shock wave was transmitted into her hull and two propeller shafts were ripped out. Despite being thrown into the air over two ship lengths or over 1,000 feet she never hogged. Her sides were keeping her intact as the keel was crushed and her armor is cracked in only one location on one side but not torn open. Though she slammed upside down onto the sea floor her upper decks show no sign of hogging or sagging. Her turrets remain in their barbettes and her casemate guns and battery deck are unaffected. One side is crushed flat as the sea fell back on top of her but the type of structural failure you see with small destroyers taking a torpedo under the keel does not apply to an Iowa or a large carrier. I can not think of a more extreme test to demonstrate this. The Baker bomb was tens of thousands times more powerful then a single conventional torpedo and could not produce the type of structural failure seen in small warships.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2013, 01:13:10 AM »
Yes, getting a hit has to hit to count.. but like AA of that period, volume of fire matters... and twenty DDs could put a lot of very lethal torps in the water.
Quote
The Iowa class battleships were the fastest ships in the water with the exception of destroyers.
Not as fast as advertised, but fast. Iowa couldn't catch Nowaki, and most of the Japanese heavy cruisers were faster depending upon load, condition, etc.(are the Jap ships using unrefined fuel from Borneo?)
Quote
Here is an assessment of torpedoes on an Iowa class battleship.
 Strafford Morss and Iowa Class Survivability 
  Commander Strafford Morss wrote an article in 1984....
those were heady days in the navy... I was at sea, and we were all tickled to see the Iowas being brought back into service.  ... ... ... 
Quote
A contact side explosion is expected to result in damage similar to that recieved by North Carolina.
remember the Iowa, protection-wise, if pretty much a lengthened South Dakota with a vulnerable bow (part of the price for that extra five or so knots). And very important here - the torpedo that hit North Carolina was a 21" sub-launched type 95, NOT the 24" Type 93 carried by IJN destroyers, which had a MUCH larger warhead.

she'd probably damage some destroyers, possibly sink some... but if it got close, she'd be in deep trouble. Best bet for Iowa, confronted by 20 destroyers, would be to open throttles and keep the range wide (in my humble surface warfare opinion)


I would add shock damage could be considerable but she does have redundant systems so her ability to recover after damage remains high. Basically what happens is the triple keel absorbs as much of the energy it can and then breaks venting the explosion into the ship. A single torpedo can not damage enough of her structural strength so the keel is crushed locally with the sides of the ship holding her from hogging in any significant way. Her upper strength decks being so strong there is no significant sagging motion either. Therefore you get localized flooding similar to a side hit. This is why Arkansas remained intact despite a nuclear explosion below her keel. The keel is crushed all around her framing and side protection inwards into the hull. The shock wave was transmitted into her hull and two propeller shafts were ripped out. Despite being thrown into the air over two ship lengths or over 1,000 feet she never hogged. Her sides were keeping her intact as the keel was crushed and her armor is cracked in only one location on one side but not torn open. Though she slammed upside down onto the sea floor her upper decks show no sign of hogging or sagging. Her turrets remain in their barbettes and her casemate guns and battery deck are unaffected. One side is crushed flat as the sea fell back on top of her but the type of structural failure you see with small destroyers taking a torpedo under the keel does not apply to an Iowa or a large carrier. I can not think of a more extreme test to demonstrate this. The Baker bomb was tens of thousands times more powerful then a single conventional torpedo and could not produce the type of structural failure seen in small warships.
I'd disagree with him on the idea that shock damage is quickly recoverable, but it depends on luck of the draw. Example: North Carolina was left with buckled decks, magazine/handling room flooded, turret compromised, and some damage to radar/wave guides. If she'd been in a surface action and shooting main battery, she prob would have found herself without radar, and possibly minus a turret.   Tirpitz, damaged by shock of mine under hull (from X craft) suffered all kinds of whip, with machinery damaged, shafts out of line. Remember how bad off Bismarck was after taking a torpedo after (and those Brit Swordfish-launched torps had tiny warheads, compared to the Japanese destroyers' Type 95)

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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2013, 02:27:44 PM »
How to sink a battleship with a destroyer (it's been done before):


http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhistory/2010-10/second-salvo-surigao-strait
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Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: USS IOWA VS 20 jap destroyers.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2013, 06:39:23 PM »
How to sink a battleship with a destroyer (it's been done before):


http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhistory/2010-10/second-salvo-surigao-strait
If it is part of the classic tactic of crossing the T backed by other battleships.
Big difference.