Chokes Over the Years?

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Was down in the Shotgun forum and read that years ago, chokes for the old card wads were tighter than chokes for today's plastic wads?  Any truth to that?

Does this mean handloading some old style card wad rounds would be a bad idea with a current ?ardner break action or Pardner pump? (Granted on the pump... just get a full choke insert.) One of my attractions to shotguns is the simplicity of hand loading them without a lot of equipment, and the possibility of fabricating your own parts, like wads. By contrast, rifle reloading seems a much more worrysome affair.

I mean, I'm quite sure with power piston type wads are tighter shooting, by design. Especially that new range controlled wad (can't recall the name). But I'm wondering if the guns have been changed such that the old loads aren't as effective?

[jpshaw]

Someone with an old shotgun might need to measure the listed choke.  Stands to reason though that if you're trying to achieve the same pattern percent in a 30" circle at a given distance since that shotcup is going to have some choke effect in itself.

[flmason]

Someone with an old shotgun might need to measure the listed choke.  Stands to reason though that if you're trying to achieve the same pattern percent in a 30" circle at a given distance since that shotcup is going to have some choke effect in itself.

No doubt.

What I'm really wondering is... have modern chokes been loosened up to make "modified with a cup" still shoot modified coverage... or have chokes stayed the same and "modified + cup" is just tighter than modified used to be.

Thought being... has it become that the traditional card loads shoot less dense patterns in barrels marked the same?

Or one other way to put it... is my current Modified going to give me Improved Cylinder if I go with old style loading methods?

I picked up a modified single barrel, going against my gut of waiting for a full... my shooting experience has been that I *need* the extra range the full gives me to get on target. So I'm feeling iffy about a modified. I'm just not a decent wingshot. The extra 10 yards or so gives me some time to be on target, and sometimes the further out the bird or clay is... the straighter it's flying relatively...

When it crossing right in front... the angles work against you the most.... as it gets further off that angles work for you.. but only if the gun can reach.

[flmason]

Someone with an old shotgun might need to measure the listed choke.  Stands to reason though that if you're trying to achieve the same pattern percent in a 30" circle at a given distance since that shotcup is going to have some choke effect in itself.

No doubt.

What I'm really wondering is... have modern chokes been loosened up to make "modified with a cup" still shoot modified coverage... or have chokes stayed the same and "modified + cup" is just tighter than modified used to be.

Thought being... has it become that the traditional card loads shoot less dense patterns in barrels marked the same?

Or one other way to put it... is my current Modified going to give me Improved Cylinder if I go with old style loading methods?

I picked up a modified single barrel, going against my gut of waiting for a full... my shooting experience has been that I *need* the extra range the full gives me to get on target. So I'm feeling iffy about a modified. I'm just not a decent wingshot. The extra 10 yards or so gives me some time to be on target, and sometimes the further out the bird or clay is... the straighter it's flying relatively...

When it crossing right in front... the angles work against you the most.... as it gets further off that angles work for you.. but only if the gun can reach.

[jpshaw]

If you reload, or have a friend who does, you can load shells that will give you a full choke pattern out of a modified barrel.  Has to do with a tighter shot cup but I can't remember the name of it at the moment.

[SHOOTALL]

Ya got to ask what old choke ? What I mean is a Parker had a very nice choke , one that is probably better than most today. Same could be said for high end L.C.Smiths and Fox guns . Then there were the "hardware store guns" with swaged chokes , we still see them today on less expensive guns. Then you have to realize that choke from gun to gun differs even though they may be called say full choke. That is do to different barrel inside measurements. Also see this today as most chokes are labeled with a standard constriction but will fit any gun that has the correct thread pattern some with tight bore and others back bored .
 So a lot of things effect choke but some consider the measurement of choke in relation to barrel ID while others consider % of shot in a 30 inch circle .
 as for card vs wad. once more old vs new , Some old chokes were up to 5 inches of taper and not mentioned but as important was the forcing cone was also long in many older guns , both were to make the transition less damaging to the shot charge. I had a Browning 30 inch full choke barrel from years ago that would shoot tighter than any other bbl I have ever had .
 also with out a wad the shot on the out side of the column scrapes and flattens out as it travles down the barrel causing fliers often opening up the pattern. That is not a function of choke though often thought to be.
 So choke is choke  But the shells we shoot today are effected differently .

[flmason]

If you reload, or have a friend who does, you can load shells that will give you a full choke pattern out of a modified barrel.  Has to do with a tighter shot cup but I can't remember the name of it at the moment.

"Federal Flight Control Wad" maybe?

Neat idea for sure. Have been wondering if there's a way to replicate that function with something home fabricated. It's a flaw of mine I guess, but the more of the round I can do without special ordering things... from common materials... for some reason, just makes me happy.

[SHOOTALL]

Use plated shot to tighten up a pattern. Magnum shot will be tighter than standard chilled shot too. Both resist barrel scraping better than the softer shot causing less flyers which open pattern.

[jpshaw]

Found this some time ago about chokes and choke affects.  I think it say it all.
 
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tips/archive_tips.htm/91

[gcrank1]

Its all 'speculatin' and spittin' in the wind' until you do patterns with your gun.
Different factory loads will pattern differently so find one that comes the closest to what you want and fine-tune your reloads from there if you have to.
BTW, HV or Magnum loads often do not pattern as well as lighter loads.
Time was that I made waxed orange juice box card 'X's to fold up into shotcups for my muzzleloader 20ga. flinter. It was a 36" cyl. bore and still shot decent patterns with that.
Ive heard that the 'new' (for how long now?) shotshells shoot about one degree of choke tighter than they used to, but you wont know until you pattern it.

[Doublebass73]

Its all 'speculatin' and spittin' in the wind' until you do patterns with your gun.

Exactly, the pattern board doesn't lie.

[jpshaw]

The guy has a point.  His theory has merit in that the old time method of "jugging" a choke didn't bother with the choke at all.  They just increased the diameter of the barrel behind it.  Yep the pattern board doesn't lie, it tells it like it is.  However, the pattern board only tells you what it is.  It cannot change a thing.  So if you want a tighter pattern you will need to change the shotcup size, choke size or something then check what change you made on a pattern board.

[flmason]

The guy has a point.  His theory has merit in that the old time method of "jugging" a choke didn't bother with the choke at all.  They just increased the diameter of the barrel behind it.  Yep the pattern board doesn't lie, it tells it like it is.  However, the pattern board only tells you what it is.  It cannot change a thing.  So if you want a tighter pattern you will need to change the shotcup size, choke size or something then check what change you made on a pattern board.

OK, so here's $69 question... using personally fabricated components as much as possible... how can you affect the tightness of a pattern in your handloads?

Is doing something like winding your own paper shot cups effective? Something else?

I'd prefer not to have to rely on things like Federal Flight Control wads, etc. if possible. Granted... you have buy primer, shot, powder, etc. But I like to be not tied to anything, as much possible. The more I can walk the grocery store or whatever and fabricate from common materials, the better.

Yes, I know that's "survivalist/Mall Ninja" I guess. But it's where my head's at. Simplest source for solutions, as is possible.

[jpshaw]

Wouldn't know about wrapping my own.  If I'm going to change something I will buy a bag of pre-made shotcups.  Actually I shoot a modified choke and I'm happy with that 95 percent of the time.  There are a few times I need (or want) to take a shot out to 40 yds then I will reload a few shells with the proper size shotcup to help it reach a little further.

[gcrank1]

It ain't like shotcups are too expensive to have around.

[SHOOTALL]

You could wrap the shot in paper or  something .

[flmason]

It ain't like shotcups are too expensive to have around.

It's not about the cost of shotcups... it's about wanting to be able to fabricate the loads with as few dependencies as possible, with as much flexibility as possible. 

To draw a parallel... jacketed bullets are available, and at several price points. Folks still cast their own.  Some folks even fabricate gas checks from scratch... some go as far as investing in Corbin equipment and making jakceted bullets.

But I'm attracted to the other direction... making good loads with as little specialized equipment and componentry as possible.

But for the aggravations of loose components... muzzleloaders really encompass the idea... You can make your own powder, cast your own projectiles, cut your own patches, etc.

Soon as you get into cartridges, much of that is lost.

Granted, like any object, if you want to pay for the hardware, you can make anything you want.

The trick is to it without all that. (For me. I realize there's another school, the highly technical school of thought, where everything is about selecting premium components. There are definitely times and days were I subscribe to that too. But my attraction to smoothbore scatterguns has a lot to do with the fact that you reload them with "The Nail and Dowel Method" to borrow a phrase.)

Here ya go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ4IBv0Bg9U

[gcrank1]

Oh, I fully understand and appreciate where you are coming from! And I probably should have said what I did with a little more thought and tact  .
I kinda went that way for a LONG time when I was more into muzzleloaders, self sufficiency, 'Mother Earth News living', Buckskinning and historical re-enacting. It can be a virtuous life and BIG kudos to you.
But I ran out of steam and beans and did some re-evaluation of MY life and decided I did not have to 'do it all, alone', and some things make MY life, and utitize MY time a bit better. So far, no regrets..... .
To your end, if you use basically the muzzle loading smoothbore techniques in the reloadable cases (think of it as just a shorter 'barrel') you can get similar results. An old rule of thumb was equal parts BP to shot (by volume), though a bit less BP often makes for better patterns. If using smokeless, keep 'em low velocity and shoot game closer. Ive used newspaper to paper wasp nest as wadding, including soft green tree leaf in the field. Paper tube of various thickness may give you different patterns, and do try cutting those waxed thin cardboard (orange juice jug) X's to fold the legs up into neat little shotcups. Someone recently mentioned using those bio-degradable packing peanuts for wads, just squish 'em in to the height you need.
My guess is youve got a lifetime of exper'mentin' with it all, so go for it and have fun!
BTW, do you subscribe to 'Backwoodsman' magazine?, it sounds like just the thing for you.

[flmason]

Oh, I fully understand and appreciate where you are coming from! And I probably should have said what I did with a little more thought and tact  .
I kinda went that way for a LONG time when I was more into muzzleloaders, self sufficiency, 'Mother Earth News living', Buckskinning and historical re-enacting. It can be a virtuous life and BIG kudos to you.
But I ran out of steam and beans and did some re-evaluation of MY life and decided I did not have to 'do it all, alone', and some things make MY life, and utitize MY time a bit better. So far, no regrets..... .
To your end, if you use basically the muzzle loading smoothbore techniques in the reloadable cases (think of it as just a shorter 'barrel') you can get similar results. An old rule of thumb was equal parts BP to shot (by volume), though a bit less BP often makes for better patterns. If using smokeless, keep 'em low velocity and shoot game closer. Ive used newspaper to paper wasp nest as wadding, including soft green tree leaf in the field. Paper tube of various thickness may give you different patterns, and do try cutting those waxed thin cardboard (orange juice jug) X's to fold the legs up into neat little shotcups. Someone recently mentioned using those bio-degradable packing peanuts for wads, just squish 'em in to the height you need.
My guess is youve got a lifetime of exper'mentin' with it all, so go for it and have fun!
BTW, do you subscribe to 'Backwoodsman' magazine?, it sounds like just the thing for you.

Oh, don't take it that way. I was writing fast, Was tired.

I never have gone the "off the grid" way, to be sure. I've been a rural to suburbanite my whole life. Nothing extreme here.

Just when it comes to guns, I guess it's like women and shoes... always comparing one to the next... one method to another.

Obviously the building round like I used to build golf clubs... buying a bunch parts and assembling them is the standard way these days.

But having had an interest in the black powder stuff too, there are times when I ask myself... "Hmmm could I do that myself? My own way? Safely?"

It's not about any kind of snobbery or reverse snobbery. Just interested in all facets from flintlock to modern.

But improvised and "DIY" kind of interests me where the quality can be on par.