.45 Colt vs. .30-30

[jimster]

Finally, who likes their octagon barreled rifles; is it just added dead weight up front and do you wish you'd gone instead with a round barrel, 20" or 24"?

I liked the octagon a lot, it was heavy yes, but for off hand shooting without a rest it just hangs out there and doesn't move, and I think those look really neat too.
 

[Lloyd Smale]

im with jim here. If were doing a fair comparison lets add another 200 fps to a 3030. Its just as capable of that increase as a 45 colt lever gun is capable of ruger level loads. No to address that. A marlin 94 or winchester 94 IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH for ruger level loads. Sure you might be getting away with it and i doubt it will blow up but your eventually going to cause premature wear to your gun. Ive NEVER seen even ONE loading manual that claimed you could use ruger level loads in a marlin. THE ONLY levergun capable of taking those pressures in stride is a 92. I guess im about one of those guys who lives in a glass house and thows stones as ive done it myself and have even pushed rugers well over ruger level loads but if your trying to make a fair comparison here. Its about like saying a new camero is faster then a new vette and putting nitrous on the camero to prove it. It might be faster for a while but it sure isnt going to hold up long.

I don't know how we can compare a .45 large fat handgun bullet to a .308 rifle bullet. I have shot both a lot, plus a long love affair with a Rossi 24" .45 Colt...love them both, but if I have an animal 165 yrds out, I need the 30-30, if not for anything else, to keep me from having to raise up the sight on the .45 Colt. I know we are talking about hot rodding the .45 as well, but you can hot rod the 30-30 too, then we are right back to where we started, a large fat .45 handgun bullet and a .308 slimmer longer rifle bullet. Not sure we can compare two things so different and be fair about it.
P.S...45 Colt Rossi 92 with 24" oct barrel and tang sight...more fun, way more fun.

[cwlongshot]

Lloyd,

Conserning the stregnth of the Marlin, I must disagree. Many manuals list Marlins as safe for heavy 45Colt loads. The marlin is chambered for the 357, 41 & 44 Magnums all of these run pressures from 35-nearly 40K. Ruger level loads are limited to 30K. ENTIRELY within design perameters. I have personally spoke the marlin firearms engineers at the factory. I was a business aquentance of Tony Ashelamn, Marlins VP or sales form many many years. (I live and work with in 10 miles of the old North Haven Marlin factory)

The 1894 Winchester is also safe with these loads as it too is offered in 44 magnum. Yes I know all about the slightly smaller head of the 44. But also know the 44 router my runs loads in excess of 37k.

Yes too the 1892 is a stronger action than the win'94 argue ably stronger then the Marlin'94. Marlin should hold the edge if only because of the modern steels. With current Jap production that advantage is moot.

As far as hot loading the 30/30, its already a 40K loading and in a Winchester NOT safe to load any hotter. Bolts and SS, sure we do it all the time.  Now one could argue to compair it to the ackley improved, but how far from the OP's inquery will we go?

The 30/30 has for ever been using exegerated ballistics either by testing in a longer barrel or flat out exegerations.

Also I see shots approaching 200 yards continually brought up. I made no claims at such yardages and completely agree (and stated it early on) the nearly round 45 slugs shed vel and energy quickly giving the advantage to the 30 cal at yardages past 130-150 yards.  But even the 30/30 has its limitations, arguably because of sights. (Also previously me too we in my posts)


As I see it, (I am guilts as well) people are very hard pressed to realize that a handgun round can have the power of a hi powered rifle. I mean even the name. "Hi powered" denotes a advantage.
Just looking at the rather unfair ballistics bears out my statements. AGAIN with in say 100-125 yards.

As for pushing pressures past Ruger levels. I too have DONT this as when shooting them I find NO excessive pressure signs so I load a bit hotter. I stop simply because I done feel I "need" any more power. If anyone has read Dick Cassull Jon Taffin or Bob Millek and later Paco Kelly, writings on the subject you may better understand my words here.

I am a bit passionate on this subject as I feel I know of way I speak having done it so long. ( I know many other before me have done more) Time and time again I have pole axed deer and hogs with my 45 Colts I have complete confidence using one. (With in distance perameters)
Another caliber I have used extensively this one since its Introduction, is the 357 Maximum. Many consider it a 200 yard gun, I do not. It's a great one & I do love it too but IMHO its allot better if limited to 150 yards.

I feel many of you are comparing what you have read to what I say. I have read allot too and much of it mirrors what I have found. This caliber has been hot rodded long enough now I have seen writings  from new authors simply mimicking the writers from twenty and thirty years ago. I don't think or better said, i get the distinct impression, they never actually did anything for there story. Well nothing but read and rewrite like a parrot mimicking its trainer what these authors did before them. Sad really, its a great caliber and a heck of allot of fun to experiment with.

CW

[temmi]

I have a 45 Colt Rossi with a 24inch bbl.
 
It is excellect
 
I did have Steve's Gunz do his standard package and I did have to "Finish" the stock.
 
but is is as nice of a lever as you can get
 
Snake

[Blackhawker]

I have to second MUCH, if not all of what CW posted just above.  I would NEVER hot rod a 30-30 load.  You're asking for trouble if you do so.  As CW said, you're at the 40K level already.  If you want a few hundred fps out of it, go to a .307 or something like that.  As for 200 yards with a 30-30, one has to stipulate what it's being used for.  As a deer gun, I'd say no at that distance, but then again, I don't hunt deer so I'm not an expert in that field.  If I had to guess, I'd probably not go out further than 125 to 150 with it.  On the other hand, I have shot a lot of prairie dogs with the round at 200 and more yards from a 94 and T/C pistols and carbines and it shoots very well and very straight up at 200 yards.  As a target and varmint shooter, it's OK at 200 yds but for anything bigger than a chuck, I'd get something with a little  more power.

As for hot rodding the 45 Colt in a 94, I agree with what CW says as the Ruger level loads are well below what the 94 can, or at least should handle.  When I have fired these rounds through my 94, I have never seen any overpressure signs with the casings etc, but for some reason, my 94 has had some parts break.  I don't know if this has anything to do with Ruger loads or not but I've decided to somewhat retire my 94 for Ruger level 45 Colt loads and use the Ruger level loads in my H&R Classic Carbine instead. 

[Ranch13]

If you take a quick look at the data on Hogdons web , the 45 colt ruger and tc only loads show pressures running at 30K cup. The 30-30 shows pressures averaging 35k cup. 
Then if you take the numbers from that site and go somewhere to a ballistics calculator, it'll show you right quick that at 100 yds the 30-30 has more foot pounds of energy than the hottest of the 45 colt loads do at 50, and at 200 yds the 30-30 150 gr load is still carrying more fpe than the 45 colt loads do at 100.
Also take into consideration the higher sectional density of the 30-30 bullets and the better bc and it gets pretty obvious why that cartridge has been loaded to the same levels and had a rather successful venture since 1895.
 Don't get me wrong I've spent well over a 1/2 century with the 45 colt, and I've been running one of the Winchester trappers pretty hard since 1988, but I've also never been without a 30-30, and when it's time to get real serious the 30-30 gets the nod before the 45. The 45 is a fun gun altho when you start pushing the upper limits the recoil with even the flyweight 200 gr bullets can be a bit stiff. But in the end experience tells me there's no way shape or form the 45 colt in a rifle can be compared anywhere close to the 30-30 with it comes to power. The closest it might come is when loaded with 300 gr bullets, then the big hole theory starts to kick in, but when a big hole will work good is when I want a 45-70 or larger loaded with 500 gr bullets.

[Blackhawker]

The closest it might come is when loaded with 300 gr bullets, then the big hole theory starts to kick in, but when a big hole will work good is when I want a 45-70 or larger loaded with 500 gr bullets.

With regard to that, the .375 Winchester or hot loaded 38-55's (in the proper/correct rifle) are nice too.   

[mannyrock]

 
  Just a couple of quick observations:
 
   1.   Comparing the .30-30 to .45 Colt is comparing apples to oranges.  Totally different cartridges invented for totally different purposes.
 
   2.   Once you start handloading a .45 Colt to super hot levels, its not a .45 Colt anymore.  It's something else.   You can always argue that by doing hot handloading, you can make any cartridge shoot harder and flatter.  So what's the point?  You can load a .41 mag up really hot too.  Does that make it a great deer round?  The .44 mag is cheaper than the .45 Colt, is far more effective in readily available factory ammo, and lever actions for it are everywhere.  So,  if deer is on the menu, why bother with the Colt?
 
  3.   A .45 Colt round dropped into the right spot will kill a deer  "cleaner" than a .30-30 round dropped into the right spot?  What a thought.  What makes a kill "cleaner"?  The game taking one step after the shot?  Five steps after the shot?  Ten steps after the shot.    The .30-30 in factory loads is one of the most perfect 150 yard deer rounds ever invented.  It kills deer stone dead at those ranges, and I don't care if sometimes the deer staggers a few steps before keeling over.  It is simply irrelevant. Every deer I have ever shot with a .30-30, out to 150 yards, has been on the ground dead before I have had a chance to come down from my stand and even walk up to it.  I think 25 yards was as far as one ever travelled.
 
   4.  How many Angels can fit on the head of a pin?   Religious philosphers spent hundreds of years seriously debating this question, and some still do.  What a waste.
 
Mannyrock

[Ranch13]

The closest it might come is when loaded with 300 gr bullets, then the big hole theory starts to kick in, but when a big hole will work good is when I want a 45-70 or larger loaded with 500 gr bullets.

With regard to that, the .375 Winchester or hot loaded 38-55's (in the proper/correct rifle) are nice too.   

Yeh those work well, but I'm a huge fan of the 405 it really whacks them hard, but still nothing as impressive as a 500 gr paper patch from a Sharps, but that's getting alongway off the subject here.

[kynardsj]

Boils down to the words of one of my favorite songs by Montgomery Gentry, " You do your thing and I'll do mine."

[Blackhawker]

Boils down to the words of one of my favorite songs by Montgomery Gentry, " You do your thing and I'll do mine."

Yup, that's pretty much what it is.  This discussion can go on page after page or we can all just do as we please.  My chiming in was mostly for the warning of how my rifle kinda took those heavy loads a little rough.  Other than that, shoot what you want.  It's all fun in the end.

[Ranch13]

The only problem I ran into with my trapper was trying to seat the Keith and swc bullets a little long, the nose would hangup on the end of the magazine tube when the carrier would lift. It broke the end of the carrier off, and after I got that replaced I quit trying to seat them out, and since then in the 20 someodd years I have had no problems.

[Lloyd Smale]

Without gross overloads a 45 colt out of most carbines will push a 250 to about 1700fps. Were not talking 454s here or 454 level loads using a 45 colt in a super strong gun like a 92 or single shot. I take  it were talking marlins and winchesters here. Whats not being taken into account here to be fair is the fact the 3030 is underloaded too from the factroy. I can eaisly push 170s to 2400 fps in my dads old adl with its 22 inch barrel and 150s eaisly to 2400 out of a 20 inch barrel. I wont post the loads but ive done it and done it without any pressure signs. thing is with pushing either of these calibers to higher pressures is its going to be hard on your gun. It may not blow them up but your going to loosen them up and be breaking extractors ect. . Something those springy lever gun bolts are allready stuggling with. Also keep in mind that with an increase in case head size bolt thrust increases and leverguns like marlins and win allready stuggle with springy bolts with standard loads. Another problem with the 45s and 475s is that when you go with a bigger bore the diameter of the threaded shank on the barrel becomes thinner. Its why marlin never came out with the promised 480 94. It is a known weakspot in the marlin 94s. Rob Applegate built me a real nice 475 linebaugh 94 marlin. After it was done he said hed never do another. He recomended i keep loads down to around 28000 psi in it. So in all reality i dont gain but about a 150fps over a 5.5 inch 475 revolver in it. He is about as knowlegable of a gun builder as lives today and he said the marlin action isnt strong enough for anymore and the barrel thread problem made him awful nervous.
 
 Say what you want about them being strong enough, ive done it and replaced parts. Anyone that hasnt replace at least an extractor in a marlin just hasnt shot it enough and with 30000 plus psi ammo in a 45 colt or 44 mag shot regularly youd best by a couple to keep on hand that is unless you consider shooting a couple hundred rounds a year shooting the snot out of a gun.  If pushing a gun to its breaking point doesnt bother you then go for it. Me ill back off a grain or two anymore, kill just as much, enjoy shooting a bit more and have my gun hold up for the long run. to me its kind of like was said earlier. An apples to oranges comparision. A pistol caliber levergun to me is a short range proposition. Most dont shoot well enough to be reliable at 200 yards anyway. If im going hunting and know my range wont be anymore then a 100 yards you might see me with a 45 colt or 44 mag lever gun with a good peep sight. If the range is stretched to 150-200 id take a 3030 with a scope hands down. If the ranges are going to be more then that im taking a bolt gun thankyou.
 
Id have to guess that if these guns were strong enough we would have seen a marlin 94 in 454 or 475 linebaugh long ago. Even with the 3030 when winchester wanted more power then brought us the 94 big bore in 307.

[hoytcanon]

There is sooo much I would like to say after reading many of the misconceptions in this thread... I don't know where to start. I agree with much that has been said, but the comparison between a .45 Colt and .30/30 and its effect on game is "rife" with misunderstanding. Many times the conccept of kinetic energy has been mentioned, wrongly so. It is not kinetic energy that gives the .45 Colt its short range advantage, the advatage comes for "momentum." In the formula for kintetic energy, velocity is squared (velocity X velocity X mass divided by 450,240 = KE in foot pounds)... where with momentum the formula is velocity X mass... there is a great emphasis on mass as opposed to velocity. "Momentum" is an objects resistance to slowing down or changing path... objects of equal kintetic energy can have entirely different levels of momentum... in general the slower, heavier projectile will have greater momentum... picture a Ferrari at 250 miles per hour hitting a brick wall versus a freight train at 5 miles per hour... the Ferrari will explode and the train will plunge right on through... similarly the heavy .45 bullet will resist stopping to a greater degree than the .30 bullet. Then of course there are the other contributing factors of frontal area etc... The concept that the .45 drops dramatically at 100 yards is only valid if you have sighted for 25 or 50 yards... if you have sighted for 100 yards then it doesn't drop at all at 100 yards... of course the trajectory is more arcing that a .30/30, but this can be compensated for in the set-up of the gun, and by learning your weapon and learning to estimate range properly... Basically they both work, just differently... choose the one that you have the most confidence in personally and go get your "chops!"   

[RPRNY]

HC - Great Post!

[dpe.ahoy]

There is sooo much I would like to say after reading many of the misconceptions in this thread... I don't know where to start. I agree with much that has been said, but the comparison between a .45 Colt and .30/30 and its effect on game is "rife" with misunderstanding. Many times the conccept of kinetic energy has been mentioned, wrongly so. It is not kinetic energy that gives the .45 Colt its short range advantage, the advatage comes for "momentum." In the formula for kintetic energy, velocity is squared (velocity X velocity X mass divided by 450,240 = KE in foot pounds)... where with momentum the formula is velocity X mass... there is a great emphasis on mass as opposed to velocity. "Momentum" is an objects resistance to slowing down or changing path... objects of equal kintetic energy can have entirely different levels of momentum... in general the slower, heavier projectile will have greater momentum... picture a Ferrari at 250 miles per hour hitting a brick wall versus a freight train at 5 miles per hour... the Ferrari will explode and the train will plunge right on through... similarly the heavy .45 bullet will resist stopping to a greater degree than the .30 bullet. Then of course there are the other contributing factors of frontal area etc... The concept that the .45 drops dramatically at 100 yards is only valid if you have sighted for 25 or 50 yards... if you have sighted for 100 yards then it doesn't drop at all at 100 yards... of course the trajectory is more arcing that a .30/30, but this can be compensated for in the set-up of the gun, and by learning your weapon and learning to estimate range properly... Basically they both work, just differently... choose the one that you have the most confidence in personally and go get your "chops!"   

This man has stated what is to me, obvious.  I own and shoot game with both cartridges as well as the 454, 308 MX ect.  A 45 at 30,000 psi is a different animal than the original 45 colt, shoot both and see for your self.  The OP asked about the Rossi, I have two in the 454 that I shoot 45's in as well as 454's.  The chamber is tighter in them than the chambers on my 45 colt rifles and works the brass much less and will take ANY load that can be worked up in the 45 brass using H-110 or LilGun.  Factory 45-70 level loads can be obtained with 300 gr loads using the 454 brass, what 30-30 can equal the 45-70???  CW has used the 45 for more years than I have, but I have had my 45 colt  Win 94 Trapper for about 18 years and have had zero issues with it.  Unless you hand load, buy the 30-30, everyone needs to have one or more of em.  If you hand load and want to "play", get a 45 or 454 as well, the grin factor on getting yer shoulder thumped when you let a stout load go is well worth it.  DP

[kynardsj]

hoytcanon, we're on the same page here, but without all the formulas, the definition of kinetic energy is the energy of motion. A heavy object even moving slow is harder to stop. Like your Ferrari and train example. On a lesser scale, pick up two baseballs. One is a plastic wiffle ball and the other a regular baseball. They're approximately the same size but have someone throw the wiffle ball to you and then throw the baseball to you at the same speed. Once the heavier mass gets going it takes a bit more to stop it. Nothing wrong with a 30-30, it's record thru the years more than speaks for itself. I just like my slow moving train bullets in my 45 LC.

[45-70.gov]

i like a rifle to match  my revolver


unless i need more range or power


then  i skip the 30-30-  and go to  308  or 45-70


i shoot  357  rifles the most

[hansg/Ups]

Just to add my $.02.In a lever gun,how about the 38/55[in a 24"barrel]? Would that"split" the difference?
To get more power than 45Colt[in a revolver],I went to a 45/70 BFR 7.5".Recoil is a bit rude,but muzzleblast is like a mild muzzleloading rifle,brass is more available too..

[SHOOTALL]

Finally, who likes their octagon barreled rifles; is it just added dead weight up front and do you wish you'd gone instead with a round barrel, 20" or 24"?

I liked the octagon a lot, it was heavy yes, but for off hand shooting without a rest it just hangs out there and doesn't move, and I think those look really neat too.

I have had 3 and liked then somewhat . Now they are gone and I don't miss them. Nothing wrong with them just don't miss them. Like the light 24 inch round barrel on a 94 better.

[thumper113]

Okay, now to confuse the mix...

What about the 30-30 BFR?  How's the 30-30 going to perform?  I've been considering going that route.

How would the .30-30 and the .45 LC compare from revolvers?

[45-70.gov]

Okay, now to confuse the mix...

What about the 30-30 BFR?  How's the 30-30 going to perform?  I've been considering going that route.

How would the .30-30 and the .45 LC compare from revolvers?

some people just look for  controversy

[SHOOTALL]

Okay, now to confuse the mix...

What about the 30-30 BFR?  How's the 30-30 going to perform?  I've been considering going that route.

How would the .30-30 and the .45 LC compare from revolvers?

nothing beats cubic inches in a handgun up close. So will you be using it up close or at long range ?
 Of course if you carry the correct tool for each job your holster will look like a golf bag full of guns.

[45-70.gov]

a 45 colt  in a rifle  sure is quiet.....if that matters at all...it does to me

[thumper113]

I was thinking to use the BFR for out to 50-60 yds and then my rifle for longer range.  Thought about using the reduced recoil 150's for the pistol.  I've got a couple of stands that the longest shot would be 50 yds.  Was going to hunt my .357 but just got that itch...

[Blackhawker]

Other than safety issues related to overcharging various rounds, this whole conversation kinda cracks me up.  To each their own already!!
This reminds me of that old movie "A Fist Full of Dollars".  If you recall, Clint Eastwood (man with no name) argues with Ramon, which is better; the Winchester rifle or the 45 revolver.  Later in the movie they figure that point out.

"Aim for the heart Romon".     

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about.....

YouTube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz2P3sSCGLM
(preview ahead about 5 minutes into it)

OK, I know, in the movie it's an argument of pistol vs. rifle and this is caliber in a carbine, but you get the point.