Price Gouging

[twofromMARCH]

I would like to start a dialoge on price gouging and what other shooters thing is going on behind the scenes for reloading supplies. 

[ole 5 hole group]

Here's my take on it.  If your local establishment sells only firearms, ammo and components, he must raise his prices to stay in business because he's got set monthly operating expenses to pay or else he goes out of business in times like these.  When he can't get inventory on a regular basis and sells at normal prices, he will go out of business - no doubt about that.  If he goes out of business, then when good times return - he'll either start up again if he can or someone else might give it a go - generally speaking.
 
Now, if the establishment sells a variety of goods such as a walmart, Cabela's, Fleet Farm or is one of your large sporting goods dealer who also sells fishing equipment, clothing, shoes/boots, boats, RV's, campers etc - well, his prices should remain close to the same price prior to the shortages but he'll probably limit the quantity to be purchased, as his inventory will also be limited and he'll use whatever inventory he has or can get as a drawing card to get you into his place of business in the hopes that you just might purchase a fishing rod with that box of ammo???  If his price is the same (meaning very high) as the small guy just selling firearms & ammo - well, then that business is being an opportunist, which is fine, but I for one, wouldn't forget about his business practices in any future dealings.
 
As far as what's going on??  I really don't know but I would guess that with all the new firearm owners coming on board needing ammunition - well, it'll be awhile before the shelves are full of commerical ammunition and it'll take a while longer for the components to be readily available.
 
I'm well stocked, but if this shortage would stay like it was/is for another 18 months - then I would be hurtin for certain, as I haven't curtailed my shooting habits at all.  When times get better, one should if they can, prepare for the next go around, as there will be another. 
 
Keep your powder dry and keep checkin 6 
 
 

[45-70.gov]

I TRY TO STAY WELL STOCKED
when things are good


then get out of the way when they aren't


i have done a little bartering lately...folks are generous ..when both have extra

[twoshooter]

I think we need to go about this methodically. To truly know what is going on we need to know:1* the amount of production / sales by the various ammo mfgrs for say the last 5 years.  2* Their estimated production numbers for this year. 3* Percentage of sales to govt vs civilian markets. 4* What is the current ratio of production to capacity.
      If the ammo mfgrs are at near capacity, and the ratio of civilian / govt contract sales are in line with previous years, then it is pure speculation based on public panic. If that is the case, buyer beware- stupidity and fear always have a price. If the ammo mfgrs are not producing at near capacity, we should ask if it is market driven- ie: if we oversell today we will regret it tomorrow; or some more questionable reason. If the govt/ civilian market % has shifted substantially , there MAY, ....may, be something more nefarious afoot.
    As for the scalpers- I hope they get caught holding- I would love to see them lose their ass and have a glut of cheap ammo in 12-18 months. Remember- they cannot operate without your cooperation. You do not have to be a "Prepper" and have a 30 year supply, but anyone who allows themselves to get down to their last box of ammo, can of beans, diabetic test strips, bottle of heart medicine (or Jack) before they start looking to refill their needs, is an idiot.
     Someone here should have a contact with the industry that could supply that data.

[Ranger99]

are we commenting on stores and
legitimate businesses that are
licensed to do business, or are we
discussing the leeches that buy up
everything in sight and try to resell
at an unreal jacked up price thus
driving up other prices as well?




if we're supposed to comment on the
latter, i don't care for that kind of rudeness
at all, and i'm sincerely hoping all of those
that stockpiled with a profit motive in mind
 get what they richly deserve and be stuck
with a large amount of merchandise they can't
use and have to sell at a huge loss. those that
buy and use are just in their purchases.


i will not pay an individual a huge markup price
on any ammo or component to enable their
thievery.  these same kind of folks would gouge in
any type of crisis.
i would hope the majority feel the same.

[YRUpunting?]

The ammunition industry has been operating at full capacity for the last eight to ten years.  Firearm sales have almost doubled during the Obama years, that's a lot of new guns to be fed.  There simply is no way to supply the ammunition that is currently being demanded.  There is an article out today from Virginia that what ever ammo comes in is sold that day.  The panic buying will not stop until there is reason to believe the gun grabbers are subdued.  That will be the mid-term elections at the earliest. 

The term "price gouging" gets thrown around a lot, incorrectly.  Price gouging only applies to times like natural disasters (pray for those in OK) where basic necessities like food, water, and fuel are protected against unsavory people trying to take advantage of people when the situation is dire.  Reloading and shooting stuff are luxury items.  By definition we get "gouged" on them.

As for the people seeking to make a profit.  Personally, losing money seems to be a foolish thing to me.  Profit is good.  If people are stupid enough to pay the exorbitant prices then as far as I'm concerned someone should be taking advantage of their stupidity.

[Savage]

A more accurate term would be "Speculators" not "Gougers" . There will always be the shortsighted individual that gets caught unprepared, although one should have seen this coming far in advance. I didn't buy to resell, but have no problem with those that do.
Good post, Old 5 Hole Group!
Savage

[mechanic]

Here's a recent article.
 
Ben
 
http://www.teaparty.org/ammo-shortage-persists-across-nation-24420/

[ironglow]

Lake City Ammunition, largest ammo plant in the western hemisphere ..and possibly in the world.... is cutting back drastically.  Although it is operated by  ATK..it is technically, on an Army base, so the Army or rather, the C-in-C ..calls the shots regarding production.
   http://www.kmbc.com/news/kansas-city/Lake-City-Ammunition-Plant-offers-layoffs/-/11664182/19218192/-/jm4exxz/-/index.html
    The Lake City plant is the largest producer of .223 ammo and components...The "blueshirts" of HSC.. have ordered and received their billions of rounds of ammo..  now is the time to cut production way back. 
 
  JUST CONNECT THE DOTS...

[tomtomz]

I am mostly thankful for the tone set here, which tends to result in sharing
with or directing people in need to a primer, pound of powder, or a box of
loaded ammo. I am optimistic that this spirit will continue and prevail.

That said, Copper and gas have gone through the roof, making raw materials
and shipping costs skyrocket. Brass is part Copper, and primers contain copper
to an extent. Lead is now wrapped in EPA regulations, driving that cost up.
Shipping and tracking hazardous materials adds cost. Labor costs are high,
and business is burdened with providing health insurance.

[LaOtto222]

When someone makes a purchase and then turns around and charges double their cost or more, that is price gouging. It does not matter if it is a store, business or an individual. We enjoy a free enterprise system, but cheese Louise not double or more. When gas prices sky rocketed in our state, the politicians warned the gas distributors that they were going to look into it and anyone caught price gouging would be fined or worse. They did the same thing with gas generators when there were storms that came through. It did not take long for gas prices to drop back down to high, but reasonable levels. Gun stuff does not get the politicians scrutiny, let the gun nuts spend their money, politicians do not care, but I do. A local store charged $5/100 for primers back in 2008/09, when you could get them. I knew that they were getting them for less than half of that. I swore I would not buy their reloading supplies again, no matter their cost and I have not. They have now gotten out of that part of the business (reloading supplies). It deserves them right. I found other sources and stocked up well since that shortage. I can ride out this insanity for some time. People are paying $50.00 and more for a brick of 22 Rim Fires, now that is insane. I more than likely have enough to last my life time, but enough to last a long time in any case. I can not believe people will pay that kind of money for ammo. I really hope that the guys that are buying up the supplies get stuck and loose their shirts. Some call it free enterprise, I call it price gouging and will not perpetuate it by paying more than it cost a year ago. If everyone would do that, it would not take long to get over the shortage and high prices. PT Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute, just do not expect me to be part of it now or later.

Good Shooting and Good Luck

[twofromMARCH]

I am glad to see all of the educated and well articulated responses.  The consensus for gouging seems to be exploitation, whether they be a large corporation or a single individual. One thing we cant deny is the increased demand on reloading supplies due to the lack of ammo availability.  That means a lot more reloaders in the market, with Lee, Dillon, etc on months backorder for equipment.  As soon as people start panic buying, that creates domino effect on the supply producing a market of scarcity which creates an opportunity for price gouging. There are lots of people that take advantage of this.  Out of all of the reloading supplies, fired brass has become one of the most volatile markets I feel.  Primers, powders, and projectiles are most typically produced by large companies familiar with the reloading industry.  With fired brass, that brings metal recyclers into the mix that can determine their own prices.  The rise in fired brass prices have to do with scarcity as well as those selling unsorted brass marked up because they know the demand is so high. 

[LaOtto222]

I have noticed that Diamond K Brass prices have come down considerably. Still what I consider high, but not price gouging in my opinion. It looks like the owner/manager is trying his best to satisfy customers too. Kudos to DKB for listening to the customers and responding positively.

Good Luck and Good Shooting