Seneca vs. Cherokee?...several for sale found....

[alan in ga]

I found a small collection of T/Cs in .45. There is no rollmark showing which model rifle [Seneca/Cherokee] on the guns. Of about 5 rifles, all are DNR labeled [laundry marker] and most have the hammers gone. One that has a  nice bore HAS a hammer. I guess these rifles were used in class instruction [?] for hunter courses, or...not sure. The bore surprisingly was not 'rust orange' as so many muzzle loaders are left to be.
$149 for the complete rifle....I'm not sure why I'm not on my way back to get it. The others, missing a hammer or having a broken hammer [dropped rifles??] are $109. They have patch boxes but barrel is not marked Seneca....are they Senecas? I don't remember if they had a brass schnobel forends or not but will find out.
Maybe I could do a 'bundle' deal?
Thanks for any help you can offer. I actually owned a Hawken and a Seneca about 1978 but forget as to whether the name "SENECA" is on the barrel or not.
Been too long since I smelled sulfur....
 
AND....are there any replacement hammers or parts, aftermarket? I hear T/C has no more because of tooling loss after a fire.

[bubba.50]

I've had three complete senecas and a couple extra barrels. only one had "Seneca" stamped on the barrel. auction sites such as evil-bay and puttin' "want to buy" ads on sites such as this one are yer best bets for parts. you might also send a pm to 30HERRETT or RamblinMan2 here on graybeard as they are known to have obsolete t/c parts from time to time. for what it's worth & have a good'en, bubba.

[JonnyReb]

 Sounds like absolute bargains if the barrels arn't to bad, as bubba said, Ramblinmans a great guy to contact for parts or ebay if not. They can definitely be fixed 

[alan in ga]

What's available for replacement hammers? I see one on GB for $50....more than I would care to pay if something else might work.
Have all the hammers been scrounged from their hiding places? : )

[eastbank]

for those prices, buy them all and worry about the parts later. you will have very good inventory of parts your self and would be in a good posion to trade parts for the parts you would need. eastbank.

[alan in ga]

Well now,....that's a pretty good idea! I'll check on them tomorrow and see what kind of bundle deal I can get.

[alan in ga]

Well I went back and a few more were on the rack. Obviously these were the parts guns the DNR must have decided to dump.
I bought a complete Seneca .45 for $159, and another Seneca .45 with the hammer and hammer screw, and a thimble missing for $109. It must have been a parts gun early on as the gun and bore look pretty good except for handling marks on the wood. Both have  double set triggers and the brass stock forend, and patchboxes.
 I have located a Seneca/Cherokee hammer for $35 and will probably pay the premium price to get it. I will need a hammer retainment screw but have one on the other Seneca that I can duplicate if need be. Have Lathe, Will Travel.
What about a hammer that seems a bit off center of the nipple? It should fire a cap but I'd like it to hit more centered on the nipple. Can you HEAT these hammers for slight bend to align?
You know, buying a gun already with a few USE marks and dings kind of takes the scare out of using a sparkling new gun and the worry of it scratching : )
These are going to sound off with smoke very soon.

[necchi]

Yes, Definitely heat it. It'll break if you try to cold bend it.
 
I should mention, make sure you have the right nipple for that gun before you make any changes, I believe the Cherokee/Seneca use a different nipple than the standard TC 1/4x28,, and because of that folks end up putting revolver nipples on them because they are more commonly available.
Here it is, a 12x28 stock number  PTC-S
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/159/2/PTC-S
 
If you do bend it;
A bit beyond dull red, not as hot as cherry red will do, the metal will let you know.
 
Remove it from the lock of course, then I usually clamp it in a vice as a heat sink and heat just the curved neck,, bend just a tiny bit at a time and repeat as needed.
I've never had the need to re-temper an adjusted hammer, or quench it, I let it cool a few minutes then run under water so I can handle it an that's it. The S curve and geometry of the hammer keeps it strong enough, any case hardening is just for looks.
 
When it's fully on the nipple,, it's preferable to have the hammer face strike the nipple with full on diameter. Use a marking compound (inlet black/lipstick) on the nipple then lower the hammer to contact,, lift the hammer and look inside the hammer cup for the mark,, if you don't see a full circle transferred remove the high spots with a small dremel grinding stone,, repeat the process  until the full circle of the nipple is transferred to the inside of the hammer cup.
 
 

[alan in ga]

Found and purchased the hammer...'only' $30. Not wanting to pay that much, but in the same breath, glad to find it...and pay for it!!
Now I have two Seneca .45s with only one now missing a ram rod thimble. Looks like they were spot welded or silver soldered on. Guess some lathe time could make a reproduction but it would be nice to find a factory. Guess the factory would only offer a thimble/barrel lug assembly since they were soldered/welded on the lug. Shop had the larger Hawken thimbles but they screw onto the Hawken lugs[?].

[bubba.50]

I believe the thimble has a small screw that comes in from the back side of the rib. don't know why they did them that way. the feller I got my Seneca from replaced the steel ones with some brass ones he got off evil-bay. made the little gun much better lookin' in my opinion. he threaded the holes in the rib so they'd go on from the front like hawken thimbles.

[alan in ga]

Hmmm...I'll have a closer look! One of these has a #9xxx serial number... Pretty early production I guess.

[alan in ga]

Might get back to the Seneca 'source' today. Took my grandson [9] down in the woods yesterday with about 20 gr FF Clean Shot under a PRB for a test shot. I was going to let him shoot it but thought it really should be test fired by me first since it was a used rifle and well, just a grandfather's protective notion.
I let him carry the Seneca back to the house [100 yards] and couldn't help but think I should look for the appropriate project Seneca to CUT the barrel back and make a light rifle for HIM.
Anyone cut a Seneca barrel back? These are all 45s remember. Wish I could buy the whole lot of the used Senecas.
My T/C parts source had another hammer left for $30, might better scarf that up, too!
I must be operating the 'Seneca Rescue' house : )

[wiley]

I have one cut to about 16", and the rest is original. Bubba got the rib cut down and the ramrod matched up, but the end of the barrel lacks a bit: not perpendicular or countersunk and it cuts patches. Stuck a factory length .36 cal in it. The short 45 makes a handy blanket or canoe gun, though, and I'll get it sorted to try in my deer blind, some day

[alan in ga]

Wiley, I'd like to see a picture of that cut down Seneca[?] if you could post one!

[Hank08]

Alan,sounds like you made some great buys.  I don't have a short one but I have a long one.  This is a .45 with a 36" GM barrel, original barrel was rusted and pitted, it's very accurate now, also have a .36 with standard factory barrel, it's also a good shooter. H08  I got the thimbles of the right size from TOW.

[alan in ga]

How are the thimbles attached on your Seneca? Mine are very early guns [3,XXX and 9,XXX] and I'm wondering if the method of attachment changed during later production. Mine are steel and appear to be silver soldered on. I've not removed the barrel rib yet, just looking at the attachment point of the missing thimble on one of my 2 Seneca rifles. Thanks for the response.
BTW: I've not been to the range for target testing yet...chomping at the bit to go though!

[Hank08]

On the .45 that I rebarreled I used brass and soldered them on, I'll check my factory .36 tomorrow and let you know how they're attached, TC usually screws them on, Hank

[alan in ga]

BTW does anyone know when the Seneca first came out? My #3,XXX serial number rifle must be early production. Looks to be even a slight stock length of pull difference between it and the #9,XXX I have. Maybe minor production changes early on?
I'll see if I can measure and tell what the differences are.

[Hank08]

Looking thru Gun Digest, the TC Seneca first appeared there in 1974 so it probably was first made in 1973.  I thought my .36 Seneca was old but the serial # is 57000 so it's new compared to yours, I finally got to look at it today and the thimbles are screwed to the under rib and they are screwed from inside the thimble rather than from the back of the rib as someone mentioned earlier so that may have changed over the yrs. H08