Muzzloader Load Not Heavy Enough?

[buckshooter]

Myself, dad and brother have all experienced deer simply running off after good solid hits with our muzzleloaders.  We have all been shooting Power Belt 50 caliber 245 grain hollow points from $150 CVA muzzleloaders.  Since none of us can currently afford a better gun, we were thinking of switching to a heavier load.  Perhaps shooting the 348 grain Power Belts would do the trick?  Or, what about using TC Sabots instead?  Can anyone share their experience?  Don't get me wrong, we've killed our share of deer with these guns, it just gets old seeing this happen and we'd like to eliminate as much chance as possible of wounding a deer that runs off and dies somewhere over the property line.  Your opinions would be much appreciated.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

yeah the 348 would certainly do the job, mine loved 90gr pyrodex p and the 348gr powerbelt.

Sabot wise, 260gr harvester scorpion pt gold in a mmp hph24 sabot.

[flintlock]

What is the powder you are using and charge???

[buckshooter]

Two powders of triple seven.

[mannyrock]

    Hi, I have some direct experience with this.
 
   I highly recommend that you go to the 348 grain Powerpoint, with a 100 grain charge.
 
  My brother used the 290 grain Powerpoints (hollowpoint) for 3 years, and shot several deer.  He never lost one, but he told me that the performance was marginal.  He switched to the 348 grain, and says it is much better.
 
   He gave me all of his remaining 290 grainers instead of throwing them away.  I shot a deer just four days ago using one (with 90 grains of Triple 7), at 75 yards, a medium doe.  It hit squarely on the shoulder and exploded within.  The deer only went about 50 yards into the woods and died.  But, the bullet blew up like a grenade when it hit that shoulder bone, shattering it into lots of little pieces.  The bullet came apart, and didn't make it into the inside of the chest cavity.  I think the poor deer died of shock.
 
   Accordingly, I have thrown away all of the remaining 290 grainers.  I am switching to the 348s.
 
   There is nothing wrong with your rifle, just the loads.  Go to the heavier bullet.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Mannyrock
 
 
 
 

[flintlock]

Let me mention something else, you may be pushing those bullets too fast...
I use 80grs FFF in my Knight with .300gr Hornady XTPs...I also use 80grs FFF in my flinter and 230gr .530 round balls...
 
With PowerBelts, more powder is not always good, this is why I prefer loose powder over pellets, so you can taylor the load to the situation...
 
Pushing bullets too fast makes them mushroom too quickly, they break apart and penetrate less, not good for blood trails...

[Ranger99]

don't have an inline, so i can't
speak for that and sabot bullets.
i've shot a bunch of deer with 70-90
grains of goex and a p.r.b. (177 gr.) and
never lost one. i would probably
agree with previous posts about
pushing too fast. if you got some
heart with your bullet, you won't
lose your deer. bullet placement.


and i've done some of them with
a 50.00 cva bobcat, so price ain't
got doodley-squat to do with it.
before next season, you need to
get some different bullets and
practice a bunch to see what your
rifle likes. you should be able to
pop any whitetail around with a hundred
grains of propellant or less.

[mannyrock]

 
   I agree with you guys.  I never use the pellet powder, because I am deadly afraid of dropping three of them down my barrel in the heat of the moment during a reload.  I like the loose powder much better.
 
  If I stay with Powerbelts, I am going to go to the plastic tipped ones.  I really don't see the reason for shooting a .50 caliber hollow point at a deer.  The old T/C Maxiballs were conicals with a round nose, and they use to drop deer like a ton of bricks.
 
Mannyrock
 
 

[mspaci]

1. try loose powder, & get a better load worked up, more consistency, and accuracy, you might not need 100 grains, I shoot 90
2. ditch the PB & go with a Barnes 290 or 300 grain in an mmp sabot & they will not go very far. Most never take a step, never had one go more than 50 yards. Mike

[randy_68]

I used the Powerbelt 245 with plastic tip over 90 gr Blackhorn 209 and CCI 209M primer to drop two does this year. First was a broadside shot at 40 yards, completely blew out both lungs with a passthru shot. She went about 70 yards and left a bloodtrail a blind man could have followed. After the shot she just walked away like nothing was wrong. I thought I missed her for a second but knew I didn't.  Don't know how she went that far with out any lungs left. The second one was 75 yards or so and I hit her a couple inches higher than the first one just blowing out the top of both lungs. She dropped in her tracks and kicked for a couple of seconds and then it was all over. It was also a complete passthru. It's weird but the one with the most damage went farther than the one with minimal damage. Go figure. I may switch off for next season to the Barnes bullets as I have heard all postive things with them. Not so much with Powerbelts.

[Mike in Virginia]

Good grief.  How far we've come from the original loads that stopped big deer within sight.  I've hunted with traditional muzzleloaders since the early 70's.  I've always used .50 or .54 patched roundballs.  Never have they not stopped deer.  I would think an in-line with Power Belts would be even more capable.  I can tell you that I've never lost a deer shot with a .50 or .54 roundball.  I once lost one shot with a .45 roundball, but I'm certain that was because I shot it through the neck and did no permanent damage. 
 
The modern trend is to make front stuffers as much as possible like a high powered cartridge rifle.  Take yourself back in your mind to the real world of muzzleloaders and spend some time at the range getting to know a slow-twist rifle that likes roundballs.  No animal walking North America can stand up to a .54 caliber ball placed where it's supposed to go.  We've become a nasty mess of killers instead of hunters.  We want the easiest and the best.  But good grief, I say again, good grief, if you can't stop them with a modern in-line and plastic belted copper bullets, you ought not go hunting. 

[buckshooter]

Well Mike, that's why it's called hunting not killing...  I'm trying to do my best to bring them down, thus the reason for my post.
 
So now I've purchased the 348s and will be going to the range to sight in.  Thinking of sighting in dead on at 75 yards instead of 50, since these will drop more than the 245s.  Any input guys?

[OldSchoolRanger]

Myself, dad and brother have all experienced deer simply running off after good solid hits with our muzzleloaders.  We have all been shooting Power Belt 50 caliber 245 grain hollow points from $150 CVA muzzleloaders.  Since none of us can currently afford a better gun, we were thinking of switching to a heavier load.  Perhaps shooting the 348 grain Power Belts would do the trick?  Or, what about using TC Sabots instead?  Can anyone share their experience?  Don't get me wrong, we've killed our share of deer with these guns, it just gets old seeing this happen and we'd like to eliminate as much chance as possible of wounding a deer that runs off and dies somewhere over the property line.  Your opinions would be much appreciated.

Two powders of triple seven.

You don't have to switch guns, or powder (T7) or the powder charge (I assume you mean 100 grains T7).  Your problem is the Powerbelt bullets.

Just google results of people who have been using Powerbelts.  The bullets break up.  Try using TC Cheap shots, they are 240grain all lead hollow points, and they work as good as the 240 grain Hornady XTP's, and bbest of all they're cheap, as in inexpensive.  As a matter of fact they both use the same sabots. 

I started using them as practice ammo, then switch over to the XTP's for hunting.  One year I tried the Cheap Shots as a hunting load.  They were devastating on deer.  This year my son shot two deer with them, and both DRT, no running at all. 

[buckshooter]

Thanks OldSchool, we just might have to give that a try.  I like cheap! 


One question though: We started with the powerbelts because it meant we didn't have to clean the darn gun after every shot - we get about 8 shots before we MUST clean the barrel or we can't load the thing and have it seated properly.  And, since it's a cheap gun, it takes tools and a workbench just to get it apart, let alone cleaning it!


So, how often do you have to clean your gun using Cheap shots and T7?  Couple shots? 4 to 6? 6-8?

[buckshooter]

Oh, and I forgot one thing!  You're absolutely right about them breaking apart.  I shot a coyote yesterday on the last day of our deer season and found fragments of the 348 grain coming out of the exit wound.  And that's on a coyote, probably would break up even more on a deer I imagine.

[mannyrock]

Buckshooter,
 
   Just my experience, but when I shoot Powerbelts with Triple 7, unless I am actually hunting, I always have a utility rod next to me with a cylinder shaped jag attached.  After every shot, I run a damp patch (with TC solvent) on it down the barrel, pull it out, flip the patch over, run it down and out again, and then run a dry patch down and out.  This takes me about 15 seconds.   
 
    Doing this, I have shot as many as 50 rounds, without having to stop and do any more cleaning.  Who knows, maybe I could have shot 100 rounds?
 
    Final clean up is then very easy.   I never pull the breach plug.  Just 4 or 5 wet patches, followed by a couple of dry ones, and then clear the nipple hole with a proper sized drill bit.   A light coat of oil down the barrel and I'm done.  Takes about 10 minutes.
 
Mannyrock
 
   

[flintlock]

Now you have added something else to the equation...Cleaning between shots...Frankly with my flintlocks I don't have to clean as I have the option of using thinner patches after the first few shots...
 
PowerBelts are about the sorriest bullets you can use in an inline...The main advantage is easy loading...To me that is no reason to use a bullet...
 
A saboted, hollow point pistol bullet is a much better projectile to use...Matched with the proper sabot and powder charge and you can shoot unreal groups at 100 yards and due to their better ballistic coefficient they shoot much flatter than PowerBelts...
 
I don't worry about the second shot and cleaning...Best accuracy is usually obtained with a quick swab between shots...I keep cleaning patches in a zip lock bag in a pocket when using an inline...I also have a small (eye drop bottle) of rubbing alcohol and a small bottle of gun oil...After shooting a deer it only takes a minute or two to lightly dampen 2 patches with alcohol and run them down the barrel and dry before loading again...
 
I've never had to reload to shoot a deer a second time with my inline...Part of muzzleloading is forgetting about the second shot, make that first one count...

[pooldoc]

Give the powerbelts away and go with Harvester, Hornady or Barnes 250 to 300 gr bullets , 110 gr by volume of BH 209 and Harvester crush ribb sabots. The only good thing about PB  is that tthey are easy to load