Looking to get into Cannons, need some suggestions.

[IMBLITZVT]

Hello all, I am new the board. A friend and I are looking to get into Cannons. We are both experienced Firearm shooters, everything from Muzzle loaders to MGs. We would like to extend that into small cannons.


Ideally we are looking to buy two barrels and make the carriages ourselves. We are from Maryland, so we were hoping to get a scaled down Civil War cannon as we have a lot of history in our state with these cannons. We both feel Golf Ball size cannon would fit best. Its much larger than any Muzzle loader we own and small enough that we can still manage the size. So we were hoping to find a 1861 3" Ordnance Rifle (Smooth bore for us) or 1857 Napoleon but would consider a Mountain Howitzer or ... well anything with a good shape. Ideally, we would like to get it made from Stainless for looks and corrosion resistance if possible. We will likely be limited to about 200 Yards shooting as finding anything longer would mean traveling a very long way from our local firearms range.


We have run into several makers/sellers already. Cannon Superstore, Cannon Thunder and CannonMike (Retired now). Are there any other manufactures you would suggest we look into? I went down the list of sponsors a bit but a lot seem to be into full size or display only. That is not us, we intent do shoot them!


Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated! Please help point us in a good direction!

[GGaskill]

Limiting your choice of guns to Civil War pieces still leaves a wide field to choose from.  I suggest that you look around the cannon resources at the Encyclopedia of Civil War Artillery hosted by Robinson's Battery and find what you really want before looking for a maker.  That should save a lot of time on both your parts.

[IMBLITZVT]

Thanks for the link, I will look through it!


However I can tell you that we are not super picky on exactly which model or that its 100% to scale. We want a good shooting gun above all else. Ideally one we would like one of the most common models from the Civil war that will be easy for people to recognize as a Civil war artillery piece. So really the 1861 or 1857 model would be ideal if we can find a good manufacturer of either. Any Suggestions of who everyone is getting their GB cannons from?


Thanks!

[flagman1776]

Welcome!
I have a GB cannon...  wrong era for you...  but you are starting with an ambitious cannon for a first.  I stepped up from 1.25" to 1.75" (remember cannons require windage, not tight patched like a normal muzzleloader).  I was surprised at the increase in powder (roughly double).
Any you'll need a full set of tools to service your new gun.  The tools & the drill are part of the fun.

I'm glad you came here first.  Don't buy anything just yet...  drool all you want & plot & plan...  and read every thing in the stickies.  There is info on barrels & liners, balls, and makers.  This collected information will help you make a good choice & get the most bang for your buck.

[IMBLITZVT]

Welcome!
I have a GB cannon...  wrong era for you...  but you are starting with an ambitious cannon for a first.  I stepped up from 1.25" to 1.75" (remember cannons require windage, not tight patched like a normal muzzleloader).  I was surprised at the increase in powder (roughly double).
Any you'll need a full set of tools to service your new gun.  The tools & the drill are part of the fun.

I'm glad you came here first.  Don't buy anything just yet...  drool all you want & plot & plan...  and read every thing in the stickies.  There is info on barrels & liners, balls, and makers.  This collected information will help you make a good choice & get the most bang for your buck.

Thanks! Do you think we are being overly ambitious? We were looking for real step from something like a 50 BMG rifle. Are we stepping to far going to Golf Ball size? We have experienced a Soda can size Mortar. We were thinking a bit smaller but still something that said "cannon" not "large muzzle loading rifle".


Don't worry, we are Engineers... not prone to making hasty decisions. If you were looking to do what I have been talking about... who would you be looking at as far as Makers and barrels go? I have been reading through a lot but will hit the stickies hard, thanks![size=78%] [/size][/size]

[Double D]

First welcome to our  board.  You will find cannon people of al sorts for all over the world here.

So you want a cannon!  First place to look is our stickies and make contact with our sponsors.  They can help you out. 

You say you want a golf ball size cannon.  First understand that is a pretty good size cannon, especially in golf ball bore size.  A Napoleon will be about 33 inches long and  about 5.25  inches in diameter.

Sponsor Brooks USA is currently building a brass Napoleon in one inch bore for me and the barrel will almost be 20 inches long and 3 inches in diameter in the breech.

Sponsor Ed Hart at HMR cannons is currently building me a golf ball bore size model of the 8 inch siege howitzer.  This will be a close 1/5 scale cannon.

Tell us more about what you know about cannons  so we can help go in the right direction...

[IMBLITZVT]

First welcome to our  board.  You will find cannon people of al sorts for all over the world here.

So you want a cannon!  First place to look is our stickies and make contact with our sponsors.  They can help you out. 

You say you want a golf ball size cannon.  First understand that is a pretty good size cannon, especially in golf ball bore size.  A Napoleon will be about 33 inches long and  about 5.25  inches in diameter.

Sponsor Brooks USA is currently building a brass Napoleon in one inch bore for me and the barrel will almost be 20 inches long and 3 inches in diameter in the breech.

Sponsor Ed Hart at HMR cannons is currently building me a golf ball bore size model of the 8 inch siege howitzer.  This will be a close 1/5 scale cannon.

Tell us more about what you know about cannons  so we can help go in the right direction...

If you are using Steel, what is the wall thickness going to be on a GB cannon? Roughly? Chamber OD? Assuming a safe minimum?

I ask because of the scaling issue. For example that Napoleon 1857 model. Looks to me like a roughly 66" barrel on the full size originals. So at 33"s, thats about half scale. Thats a little larger than what I was thinking. I was thinking more like 1/3 scale which puts the barrel down to about 22"s. Bore from 4.62"s down to 1.7"s. Seems about right from the straight scale perspective. However strength of material would not scale at the same rate.  I see a lot of Mountain Howitzers around 24"s for GBs. I understand the barrel profile is larger. So is that just not going to add up?


Anyway, we are thinking around a 24" +/- in barrel length to get us where we want to be. If its just a matter of picking a different barrel profile, thats what we will have to do as we can both live with the Mountain Howitzer look. We just like the 1861 or 1857 cannon look a bit more.


What we know about cannons.... I don't presume to know anything and we are very open minded. I have found that taking advise from those with experience usually works out pretty well! Hopefully I kind of laid out what I was thinking enough for you guys to get the idea of what we are looking to do. Any suggestions from don't do it, to you should reconsider this, to you should do that... will be appreciated! In the end, we will have to make the call, after learning all we can, if its a path we want to travel down or if idea we had in mind is not going to work out well enough to make it worth it to us.

[little seacoast]

Several years ago I was in your position and after a lot of lurking and questioning found some barrels that suited. I like Parrott rifles for the distinctive appearance and wide spread use.  It appears that half scale is about the largest size that is really practical for one or two guys, weight and logistics get to be an issue in larger sizes. Golf ball size is great but you might wish to consider 2.25" as well, all mine are now this caliber to simplify the ammo issue. My half scale in 2.25" is by Dominic Carpenter and a wonderful gun, the 3/4th scale is a Southbend product in 2.25" and weights 4 times as much making it a more difficult proposition for one guy to handle.
If you've never made a carriage be aware that they are more complex than they look, and cost originally about three times more than the barrel did. You can certainly make one (or two) but it will require some
metal working skills or friends with some. White oak is the material of choice for many reasons and worth seeking out. The folks here are very good to help where they can. Best of luck, LS

Addendum  I just noticed your post above written while I was writing mine. A smaller size tube like you are looking at will be a good size and considerably less expensive for both tube and carriage. GB size bore is perfect in these sizes. Try for a turned steel barrel if you can find one.

[GGaskill]

You can just get a golf ball scale Napoleon out of a 4" diameter bar.  I drill 1 23/32" for golf balls and that is enough windage from a practical point of view.  The overall length of one at that scale (4/11 scale) is 26 3/16" which should fit your requirements pretty well.

This is the actual barrel in question on a home made carriage.

   

[flagman1776]

Another reason for limiting size...  is that guns & carriages need to be protected from the weather.  I've seen many guns (and horse drawn wagons...  have an antique 1890s freight wagon blocked up in my yard 25 years ago) where the weather has wreaked havoc.  Wheels are a lot of work or expense or both...  I have turned down cannons because replacing the wheels would have busted my budget.

Swivel guns were obsolete long (too small, lacked range in the face of larger ordinance) before the Civil War...  but widespread use in F&I, Rev War, 1812.  The Constitution mounted swivels in the tops, Lewis & Clark had a Swivel on their expedition.  I have stayed with swivels which give me the opportunity to have a full scale or nearly so gun & still one man portability. 

edited to add picts

bronze gun is GB bore,  tube weighs 68# add for the yoke


(A couple of delinquents grinning like hyenas)

[Doc Brown.]

 James Rifles, heres the last one I made, smooth bore not rifled or to any known scale for my personal colection of noise making cannons.  Not that i would make another but if I was going to and going to make one from 5.125" stainless steel it would cost a whole lot of money to make.  Barrels are easy to make and if you have a local friendly lathe monkey you could see about buying him the steel and the tools and a case of beer.

[Double D]

If you are using Steel, what is the wall thickness going to be on a GB cannon? Roughly? Chamber OD? Assuming a safe minimum?

Absent other factors the basic rule thumb recommended safety factor for wall thick is one caliber.  So for a golf ball bore of 1.72 inches you need to have barrel that is 5.16 in diameter over the breech.   (1.75 x 3  = 5.25 for round numbers.)  To meet safety recommendations you need a piece of steel 5.16 inches in diameter.

If you look at the original Napoleon you will see that it does not have one caliber walls.    To build your cannon do this.  Determine your bore size.  Multiply that by 3 to get your breech diameter.   Using the  breech diameter, scale that to the original plan dimension.

Here is how works out with a one inch bore.










By the way you can multiply all the dimension in the above by 1.72 and get the dimensions for a golf ball cannon.

If you can work with steels of different strength so you can get a smaller  barrel is fine if you know your  steels.   That does over ride some of the original features of the original design.  Oversize size appearance and increased recoil form reduced barrel weight.

Something to consider is how are you going to construct the barrel.  A golf ball barrel will require a lathe roughly twice as long as the barrel in order to bore the hole to depth.  And then you need the tooling to drill or bore the hole.