I Need Some Advise

[Big Blue]

I went to a gun show last weekend and saw some of what I think were Model 44s for $69.00. They were still in cosmoline and I believe they were Romanian. I would like to find a surplus rifle, not for historic collectable value, but as a rainy day deer rifle. I don't know enough about these guns to make an inteligent choice, so I brought some questions I hope you can help me with. I want something in a deer caliber, with inexpensive ammo, that's easily attainable, so what caliber should I look for? Is it better to get a gun still in cosmoline, or are they covering up imperfections by leaving this on? What about sights? I can't use a semi-auto in PA. for deer, so I need a bolt gun. Can I get enough accuracy from these guns for deer hunting? Is this $69.00 price reasonable, or am I asking too much of a gun this cheap? Any other pointers you could give me would be very much appreciated. I do know, that I don't know enough, to know what to ask. Don't ask me to say that again.
Don

[Jack Crevalle]

$69 is in the ballpark for these. You might be able to find them cheaper on line but then you'd pay shipping and an FFL ( pause for mandatory C&R types explanation of why you should wait 6 to 8 weeks, register with the ATF and pay $30 to make a one-gun purchase ).

The 7.62 X 54 is plenty for deer but in spite of the fact that you'll find plenty of FMJ, berdan-primed milsurp ammo you may have trouble finding soft point ammo that is probably required for deer hunting in your state.

Cosmoline can hide problems but a lot of these rifles are in good condition including the bores.

[The Shrink]

Don

They were stored in cosmoline when they were packed for the Armory in Russia, 40+ years ago.  No one has looked at them since, and neither the importer nor the seller has bothered to clean it off.  

It's very much the luck of the draw, but remember that these were military packers and they were probably only packing the ones they were willing to shoot in the future.  

Wayne

[1911crazy]

These short barrel M44 mosins make excellent game getters the 7.62x54 round is between a 308 & 30-06 in power.  I shot mine with acceptable accuracy at 100yds with my bad eyes and open sites too.  That was with military FMJ ammo too. Now we have two russian manufactures making hunting ammo for the 7.62x54 too wolf and barnaul and their both $6 a box for soft point ammo we can't beat the prices.  I started out this way too I wanted a cheap gun to take out in the pouring rain too.  Once we sight these guns in they are as good as the expensive modern stuff for sure.  These are great affordable guns too for the just starting out hunter too.  For under $100 you can hunt.  This gun will do anything you want it to for sure.                                                      BigBill

There is an article in the "backwoods home magazine" website under "russian military rifles"  they talk about them making great game getters you may want to read it.

[Mikey]

Big Blue:  in addition to the Wolff ammo and the Barnaul ammo is Sellier and Bellot.  Typically you will find bullet weights in 180 - 200 grains for that caliber and as BigBill provided, it hits somewhere twixt a 308 and 30-06.  My brother picked up a M44 and after a bit of work it grouped very well at 100 yds with 10 shot groups - accuracy was pretty good for an old warhorse and that became his rainy day rifle.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Big Blue]

Thanks for the info guys. I took a look at the Russian Mosin Nagant Page and forum, they had some great info there. There was a recommendation for the Sellier and Belliot ammo. I already reload for 11 different calibers, can these military rounds be reloaded? I've never had to deal with Berdan primers before, so I don't know much about that type of ammo. I've also seen some steel cartridges in military ammo, and I don't believe they can be reloaded. With the low cost of this ammo, normally I wouldn't bother reloading, but to get better bullets for hunting it may still make sense. I see several different models of Soviet rifles, 38, 44, 91, which are available at the best cost for the most value? It seems that the availability of these rifles comes in waves. Keep in mind I'm not collecting, just looking for a shooter.
Don

[Jack Crevalle]

Thanks for the info guys. I took a look at the Russian Mosin Nagant Page and forum, they had some great info there. There was a recommendation for the Sellier and Belliot ammo. I already reload for 11 different calibers, can these military rounds be reloaded? I've never had to deal with Berdan primers before, so I don't know much about that type of ammo.

The Sellier and Belliot rounds are probably Boxer primed, their .303 rounds are.

You can get Berdan primers in this country but they are hard to come by, require a special tool to remove, take more time to remove and force you to remove the decapping pin from your die.

I've also seen some steel cartridges in military ammo, and I don't believe they can be reloaded.

Correct.

With the low cost of this ammo, normally I wouldn't bother reloading, but to get better bullets for hunting it may still make sense. I see several different models of Soviet rifles, 38, 44, 91, which are available at the best cost for the most value? It seems that the availability of these rifles comes in waves. Keep in mind I'm not collecting, just looking for a shooter.

The 91/30's are not carbines but they are supposed to be the more accurate.

[Jack Crevalle]

Checked at Centerfire Systems and the S&B 7.62X54 ammo they sell is non-corrosive, boxer-primed, brass.

[Mikey]

Big Blue:  this is often not a good idea.  It is somewhat difficult to reload cases with the corrosive, double flash hole primers, by whatever name they are called (berdan??) and for just about every mil-surp caliber you can think of there is commercial reloadable brass.  Also, please do not try and reload steel cases - they will break something.

Most of the corrosively primed mil-surp ammo caes are throwaway stuff you find in the waste baskets at ranges alla time - at least I do.  For your Mosey-Nagger there are at least 3 manufacturers of commerical ammo:  Barnaul, Wolff and Sellier and Bellot and all are fairly inexpensive.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Big Blue]

Thanks guys, I found a gun show in nearby Jim Thorpe, PA. this weekend, so I'll have to look around there for a bargain. I like the idea of being able to look the guns over as opposed to ordering sight unseen. I work near a store called Sarcos, in New Jersey. I have been there before, but at that time they weren't selling guns, just accesories. I understand they are back in the military surplus rifle selling business, so if nothing else pops up, I can still look there.
Don

[C1PNR]

 (1) I already reload for 11 different calibers, can these military rounds be reloaded? (2) I see several different models of Soviet rifles, 38, 44, 91, which are available at the best cost for the most value?
Don

(1) I just received 200 rounds of new 7.62 x 54R brass from Graf and Sons, if you want to start with new brass.

(2)  Both the M38 and M44 Mosins are 20" barreled carbines.  The M44 has an integral bayonet folded back along the R side of the stock.  The 91/30 has a 27" barrel, and longer sight relief, too.  Without a C&R (03 FFL) you are kind of stuck with whatever the local market has to offer.  Be sure to check Big 5 as they frequently have Mosins for sale.

There are also several makers of "Scout" type scope mounts if you choose to put a scope on your purchase (I have one on order for my M39 Finn M/N).  :wink:

I really like the idea of loading my own ammunition.  I know what is in it and can blame only one person for a miss in the field or on a target.  Forget that Berdan stuff, and the steel cased of any type, for reloading.

If you do reload, you will miss the "excitement" on the range when you cut loose with one of the milsurp rounds out of a carbine.  The term "muzzle flash" has a whole new meaning! :-D  :shock:

[Big Blue]

Good news, my application for a C+R license came in the mail. I have it all filled out, but want to visit my local police before I mail it, just to make sure I'm in compliance with all local laws. Next weekend there is a big Gun Show in the Valley Forge convention Center in SE PA. I'm hoping to find some nice rifles, and some good prices. I'll let you all know how I make out.
Don