Maximum effective range of an M1895 45-70

[dla]

The maximum point blank range of an 1800fps bullet is 194yds assuming an 8" target (kill zone). If you increase the velocity of the bullet to 2000fps, you increase the maximum point blank range to 214yds.

What is the effective range? Much different story. Coyote Hunter can whack rams at 500yds. The Quigley-wannabe crowd regularity shoots 535gr @1200fps to 1000yds. For the hunter, carrying a range finder, and ballistic chart, backed up with lots of practice, could extend the effective range out past 300yds. At 500yds a 405gr Rem is moving 1000fps, which will still decisively put down an Elk, but at that range the hunter is the serious weak link - not the cartridge/rifle.

What do you folks think?

[RIFLERANGER]

I think that the effective range of all cartridges, as far as taking game is concerned, will always be much farther than the capabilities of most humans.
That being said, you are correct.
Ranger

[dla]

I think that the effective range of all cartridges, as far as taking game is concerned, will always be much farther than the capabilities of most humans.

And in most cases, it is the shooter, not the rifle or cartridge that is the limiting factor. So, (crawling up on my soapbox):

You all are much better off learning to shoot, than messing around trying to get a few more fps from a cartridge.

(off my soapbox now)

It bothers me when people get in a lather over this or that premium bullet, whether or not the whatever-rifle can handle a bazzillion psi (or cup, or are they same or different?), etc. Having said that, it's not raining, I just mopped the floor, and now I'm going shooting.

[Mac11700]

DLA;

Perhaps I should have not expected you to read my mind and know all of my paticulars as far as my gun and load...Sorry.

Based on my own usage of the word,I have to know what is going to happen.This comes with confidence in my load,gun,shooting skills.Coyote has that in his loads as others here have with theirs.,based on their unique experiances with it.

The same can be said for me as a  traditional archer using a instinctive style of shooting. I can hit a full sized Makinzey Bison 3-d target at 100 yards 8 out of 10 times close to 75% in the kill,but my effective range is much closer,since I know that that yardage won't produce clean humane kills with field points.

Change any of the components in the equation...different story.

Mine as far as my 1895 load of 300 grain Nosler Partition @2288fps...since I have only taken 1 deer with this load @152 yards...that is my effective range with it...I know what will happen with that load at that range and can expect it to happen all the time.Move that out to 300 yards...I have no first hand knowledge as to what that load will do.I can only assume it can kill and have to take others word on it...

Yes I can change my PBR and my MPBR of any load by raising and lowering the velocity... that's not how I use the word as this seems to be what your driving at. I don't feel I can say with any confidence I can kill at those ranges till I actually do it.

Mac

[jaycocreek]

DLA-Interesting yes,but I certainly am not going to ask my 45-70 to do what my .300 Win Mag does with ease.Here's the clincher,If I new I would see Elk from say 150 yards to whatever,I would take my .300 Mag.I bought my 45-70 for the thick Timber,not to shoot 200+ yards.

Don't take me wrong,I love my Guide Gun,but for an all around Elk Gun the .300 Has my vote.But in the heavy timber the 45-70 without a scope is quicker.Like all the rest,I have fallen into 45-70 Fever.But you can't expect the 45-70 to do what other's do with ease.AKA long shot's,yes it will,but where do ya draw the line?I think un-scoped it is 100 yards + a hair or two.With a scope it's probably good to 250 + yards,but like I said if I was expecting shot's that far there are better choices of caliber's.If you believe in number's the .300 has at 400 yard's a velocity of 2200 fps and energy of 2145 with a 200 grain Nosler,I think the Elk would notice the difference.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

[Coyote Hunter]

The maximum point blank range of an 1800fps bullet is 194yds assuming an 8" target (kill zone). If you increase the velocity of the bullet to 2000fps, you increase the maximum point blank range to 214yds.

....

What do you folks think?

[list=1]

•  I prefer to base my Point Blank calculations on a 6" kill zone.  Since I know I don't shoot as well in the field as I do from a bench, using a smaller size provides insurance against shooter (my) error.
•  That said, if using an 8" kill zone, my 350g North Fork load at 2183fps has a Maximum Point Blank Range of 227 yards.  
•  Using Point Blank Ranges of 194 and 227 yards, the difference is only 33 linear yards, a 17% increase in range.  But shot opportunities can come from any angle, not just from straight-ahead.   Calculating the areal differences in circles with a radii of 194 yards and 227 yards respectively, the larger circle covers a whopping 36.9% more area -- a very significant increase in my book.
•  Since a well-constructed 350g bullet will reliably kill anything I'm likely to shoot, and since I frequently find myself hunting open sage country, I'll go for the lighter, faster 350g bullet.
[/list:o]

But what do I know - I've only killed 4 elk in sage country in the last 5 years, and my hunting buddy has only taken 3 during that time.  Maybe if we had more experience...

[Edit]

Mea culpa.  My buddy has only taken 2 elk in the sage.  His third was in the aspens.

[dla]

But what do I know - I've only killed 4 elk in sage country in the last 5 years

Appreciate your experience. However, where I hunt sage is a spice.

The only time I get a 200yd shot is after a forest fire

[Mac11700]

I would say you have more experiance than anyone using that Northfork bullet here Coyote :wink:

I know you posted those pictures over on the old site of the expanded bullets...think you might do the same here?

Mac

[jaycocreek]

North Fork?Which one,The Clearwater or the Salmon?Oh-You mean Bullet's.

Never herd of them :lol:

It's been a while since I could give you alittle ---- about you Bullet's,I couldn't resist.Sorry.Jayco.

[Coyote Hunter]

Mac -

Hope I didn't mislead anyone.  Only 1 of the seven elk my buddy and I have taken in the last 5 years were taken with the North Fork bullet, or even Marlin rifles for that matter.  All the others fell to a Ruger 7mm Rem Mag (M77 for me, M77 MKII for Dave) and a Speer 160g Grand Slam.

Here's the pics of the 350g North Fork Bonded FP after it puverized the near-side leg bone and rib, left a 4" slice in the heart, puvlerized the far rib and was recovered under the hide on the off side.  Muzzle velocity was 2183fps, distance 213 yards, calculated impact velocity was 1550fps.

Mike @ North Fork explains that the "wing" is the result of the sudden stop.  Apparently the bullet mushrooms perfectly but ocassionally during the sudden stop part of the mushroom moves forward due to inertia.  He said he sees this behavior ocassionally when placing a barrier between gelatin blocks.

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[dla]

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•  Using Point Blank Ranges of 194 and 227 yards, the difference is only 33 linear yards, a 17% increase in range.  But shot opportunities can come from any angle, not just from straight-ahead.   Calculating the areal differences in circles with a radii of 194 yards and 227 yards respectively, the larger circle covers a whopping 36.9% more area -- a very significant increase in my book.

Interesting viewpoint of comparing yourself to a fragmentation pattern. Must be something important to you sage hunters.  :-D

[Coyote Hunter]

[

•  Using Point Blank Ranges of 194 and 227 yards, the difference is only 33 linear yards, a 17% increase in range.  But shot opportunities can come from any angle, not just from straight-ahead.   Calculating the areal differences in circles with a radii of 194 yards and 227 yards respectively, the larger circle covers a whopping 36.9% more area -- a very significant increase in my book.

Interesting viewpoint of comparing yourself to a fragmentation pattern. Must be something important to you sage hunters.  :-D

Hadn't thought about it as a fragmentation pattern, and still don't.  Last fall I had elk on 3 sides of me within a matter of minutes.  What I was demonstrating was that while the extra velocity may result in "only" a 17% increase in range, that same increase results in ~37% more coverage area.  And when hunting in sage, that extra area can be very important.

[va_hunter]

Let's assume 150 yds effective range.  For my experience (limited to 30-30 and 30-06), I feel comfortable to 150.  Everything else ebing equal, any comments on effectiveness/range between the 1895G (18.5" barrel) and 1895 (22" barrel)?  I just went to the sporting goods store and shouldered the GS.  It is STILL hard to sit down   :grin:  :grin:

[Coyote Hunter]

Let's assume 150 yds effective range.  For my experience (limited to 30-30 and 30-06), I feel comfortable to 150.  Everything else ebing equal, any comments on effectiveness/range between the 1895G (18.5" barrel) and 1895 (22" barrel)?  I just went to the sporting goods store and shouldered the GS.  It is STILL hard to sit down   :grin:  :grin:

I just ran the numbers for my 2183fps North Fork 350g handload.  (Nothing better to do at 03:45 in the AM while writing and testing scripts to migrate 12 Terrabyes of satellite imagery for one tape library to another!)

The 2183fps is for my 22" barrel.  I compared it to an estimated 2050fps from an 18" barrel.

With both zeroed for their independent Max Point Blank Range for a 6" target, teh shorter GG gave up 11 yards - 192yards for the GG vs 203 yards for the 22" rifle.

[va_hunter]

Thanks. Coyote.  I am having NO luck finding a place in Northern VA that has an 1895 in stock, other than the guide gun.  I somehow think I want the longer barrel.  Maybe if I hoist one my mind will change.  Until then, we'll see.

[jaycocreek]

DLA-I don't pay attention to number's as you know.I have seen the .270 with a 130 grain Nosler drop a big bull at 425 yards on the second shot as the first missed-low.I can only imagine the velocity and energy,but the point is it worked.One shot and the trooting bull colasped.

To me number's don't mean squat but result's do.My neighbor got three Elk this year in his party,two with a 25-06.Now the 25-06 ain't supposed to kill Elk by the number's,but it does.

What ever work's,use it.Jayco.

[inluvwithsara]

va_hunter
If you run out of options looking for you 1895 in a longer barrel...Gillberts Small Arms can get them, as can walmart...

[va_hunter]

Thanks, inluv.

I wanted to pcik one up and fondle it before I ordered, though.  Found one at a gun shop about 45 minutes away, and he carried 6 brands of factory loads.  I'm going to buy before the summer gets here.