Author Topic: tempering steel?  (Read 849 times)

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Offline m-g Willy

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tempering steel?
« on: April 01, 2004, 12:59:47 PM »
I been making knives for over 20 years. I use files,saw blades, or knife blades that I shape into my own designs. I only use steel that I know is of the hardness that I want. I would like to buy some flat stock from jantz to make my own blades from but I don't know how to temper them. I understand getting them up to a certain temp and holding it for so long
,but what is the differance between temper and quench? I see where you temper at one temp, then quench at a certain temp? And is there anyway to temper without a furnance? And what is the best steel to use to get a rockwell hardness of 57-60 without having a furnace to temper with? I know this is a big order, but I sure could use any tips you all might have :lol: thanks for any advice --Willy

Offline TimWieneke

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tempering
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2004, 01:04:47 PM »
Willy,
It sounds like you're talking about the high-tech sainless steels.  If so, Joel's really the one to answer this comprehensively, but I'll offer what I do know.  It's not like heat treating carbon steels (files, saw blades, etc....).  From what I understand, you need equipment specifically for this.  You may be better served using a commercial heat treater once you're done shaping the blade.  I know of one forger who heat treats his 440 (not sure which type of 440, I'd have to ask) at home without stainless heat treating equipment.



Tim

Offline m-g Willy

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tempering steel?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2004, 01:21:56 PM »
Thanks for the  fast reply Tim, But I need to know how to temper ANY type of steel even the carbon blades have me stumped. :roll: My tempering skills consist of heating the blade to a cherry red then cooling by dipping blade in oil a few times and hope for the best :wink: --Willy

Offline TimWieneke

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heat treating steel
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2004, 09:58:24 AM »
You're on the way towards tempering carbon steel.  Couple ways to do this - real quick, here's one way.  What you need to do first is harden the steel.  You heat the steel until it loses it's magnetism (test it w/ a non-plastic magnet in a pair of pliers), then submerse it in oil until it is cool enough to touch  (When you do this, point the tip of the blade north and you'll avoid some warping).  After this, you sand the blade until it's shiny so you can watch the colors.  SLOWLY heat the blade until it changes from the silvery steel color to a straw color throughout.  After this I like to heat the spine of the blade until it is blue (blue makes it a spring basically), while keeping the edge cool and straw-colored.  This is a very general approach to heat treating carbon steel.  

Another approach is to heat the steel to non-magnetic, then sumberse only the edge until the blade is cool to the touch, then bake the whole blade to straw-colored....  

Basically with both approaches you're making a hard edge and a soft back.  If you do it right your knife won't dull too quickly and it won't snap or crack too easily under hard use.

Tim

Offline Joel

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tempering steel?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2004, 05:44:52 AM »
Will,
Tim has pretty well covered the basics of heat treating non-stainless, the subject can get out of hand because it seems every knifemaker develops their own "tricks" of the trade when heat treating/tempering steel, and can get quite,uh, excited about the subject.  For a good on line tutorial on heat treating carbon steel that pretty much follows Tim's suggestions, but goes into more detail, I suggest going to http://www.ckdforums.com and clicking on the how to/tutorial button.  Under the forging section, the first tutorial by Max Burnett called "heat treat" will give you a really good reference to get you started.   There are a number of other tutorials there that will probably interest you as well.

Far as stainless steels go...it's a different ball game for most of them.  As Tim has pointed out, they tend to use a different, more complex process, than the carbon varieties.  While the heating to critical temperature is pretty much the same(you heat to non-magnetic), the temperatures involved are different, and the "quenching Mediums" are different......many are air cooled vice oil or brine(water) cooled as  carbon steels are; although some carbon steels such as A-2 are also air cooled.  The amount of chromium present seems to be the main determining factor here. After the initial heat treat to critical temperature, most (probably all) stainless blades are then  stress relieved at a Temperature of around of 1200F for up to two hours(varies), then enter a tempering cycle(often more  than one) plus often, to get the optimum performance, a cryogenic cycle.  Cryogenics means cooling the blade in liquid Nitrogen to -305F, or in dryice/acetone(dangerous!!!) to -110 degrees to change(shrink/homogenize) the grain structure to create greater toughness(will bend more before breaking) and edge holding. Also raises the Rc around a point or so.  All this is usually done using digitally controlled ovens and some sort of liquid nitrogen set up.  All this translates into money for the initial setup and a fairly long learning curve....some stainless steels are forgiving, and some are not.  While I read constantly on the subject, the science/art of metallurgy is facinating, I opt at this point to send my blades to an experienced heat treat person who will charge me anywhere from $7.00-$14.00 a blade.  I can get a lot of blades heat treated for the cost of equipment/operating costs.  Such people as Paul Bos or D'holder, or Texas Knifemakers Supply and, I think, K & G supply offer reasonable prices. Having used mainly D'holder and TKS I have never received a poor blade from either...they come back properly HT'd and straightened( I should have mentioned that stainless also warps like crazy unless you are careful).  Up to you. Again, the one forum at CKD(high performance blades) is interesting to read, and there are any number of expert knifemakers there who can answer any questions you have about stainless, or carbon, or talonite....etc, in considerable detail, and will provide many other sources of info for your,uh, reading pleasure. Good luck.

Offline m-g Willy

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tempering steel?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2004, 08:51:22 AM »
Well Tim and Joel ,I gotta say- THANKS for the schooling!- You got me to thinking I should stick to the carbon steels if I'm doing my own heat treating,and get someone with the equipment and know how if I use stainless. Thanks again--Willy