Author Topic: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3  (Read 1243 times)

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Offline ironglow

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Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« on: August 23, 2021, 01:41:05 AM »
.
   Preaching next Sunday....  Scriptural reference (Mark 15:33-39)  centering upon vs 38, and the veil being
  torn in two.

   What is your view of this verse ?

  38Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2021, 04:38:34 AM »
To me, since it happened at JESUS death, means that the old way was null and void.  The perfect sacrifice had taken place.
I'm not a Bible scholar so I could be wrong, but I feel I'm right.
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline ironglow

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2021, 06:08:58 AM »
To me, since it happened at JESUS death, means that the old way was null and void.  The perfect sacrifice had taken place.
I'm not a Bible scholar so I could be wrong, but I feel I'm right.

  What you have written is accurate, but there is much more to extract from scripture.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2021, 08:06:06 AM »
Only God could have torn that veil. But God instituted the veil in the plans for the Temple. He also did not destroy the temple ... just tore the veil. I think that's worth thinking about. This was not a total rejection of the OT ... it was a culmination of a promise, that eliminated the barrier to the holy of holies. The blood had been applied for all ... no priest was need to mediate on behalf of the people. But the need for the blood was not eliminated, nor was the place where people meet God. To me it ties into the Abrahamic covenant where he passed through the animals torn in two ... so there must have been more to that as well.

Praying for your preparations! I'm preaching as well next Sunday.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2021, 09:52:43 AM »
.
  Excellent summary, TN ! There is so much to bring across,... much more in that short passage, than a quick read through can. 

   One critical point (IMO) the curtain was 60 ft tall and 30 ft wide, and the layers constituted a veil a hand span* thick.

        Being torn from TOP to Bottom..evidnces the hand of God..man could only have torn it from BOTTOM to TOP, and even then, it is doubtful any number of men could have torn it cleanly.

  Clearly, it shows God, reaching down to man..rather than the reverse.

   Best wishes and a prayer for your new venture and undertaking.. I'm believing you will do just fine !

   *  A span is with the fingers spread wide..measure from tip of thumb to tip of little finger.  About 9-11 inches.
   ...Not to be confused with the equestrian's "hand"   ! i.e.  width of the palm..avg 4"
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2021, 03:13:08 PM »
The veil separated the Holy of Holies from mankind.
The ripping of the veil exposed the HoH to all, all could now enter; Jesus blood made access directly to God now possible.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2021, 03:54:35 PM »
I'm sure glad that GOD included us unworthy gentiles in his plan. :)
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline ironglow

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2021, 04:35:28 PM »
 .
   Right on, Bob! ...And yes, Bug I am also amazed and pleased that He turned to allow gentiles into His plan.

   I appreciated the analysis by TN..  TN pointed out, that God tore open the curtain..but he left the temple standing..

  To myself at least, thatputs a crimp into the claims of "replacement theology"..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2021, 01:54:04 AM »
.
   Right on, Bob! ...And yes, Bug I am also amazed and pleased that He turned to allow gentiles into His plan.

   I appreciated the analysis by TN..  TN pointed out, that God tore open the curtain..but he left the temple standing..

  To myself at least, thatputs a crimp into the claims of "replacement theology"..

If anything it puts a crimp on the specialness of Israel. From the beginning the covenant of Abraham was that all the nations of the world might be blessed. Jesus came to angels singing joy to the world. And the Apostles continually fought against the Judaizers who tried to keep the specialness of Israel even while God had clearly revealed that the Gospel had always been and will always be unbound by blood lines or nation. We should note the irony of the Hellenistic Jews - Israel by birth, but Gentiles in appearance, language and education. Contrast that with "Jews" who were born gentiles but converted to the faith, were cirumcised, and changed their external appearance to conform to Israel. Which ones were God's chosen people? I assert those who believed in the promise of the Messiah, as declared by the God of the Torah, regardless of their blood or nationality.

If there was no replacement, there also was no addition ... Israel the nation and blood line were never as special as many then and many now want to imagine. There has always been a church ... those that Jesus called the spiritual "Israel" when he said that not all of those in Israel are of Israel. Those that God called the remnant, even when the rest of Israel was engaged in child sacrifice and idolatry. There has always been a "church" and it persists today across blood lines and nations. The temple was left standing to remind us that God has always come down to us - he does not expect us to rise up to him, in our self-righteousness, personal holiness, or even in the wafting aroma of our sacrifices. He comes down to us, and in tearing the veil he removed the last obstacle to having a personal relationship with him in Christ.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2021, 02:25:51 AM »
.
  we should not place Israel on a pedestal, a la John Hagee, I find it hard to denythe covenant between God and Abraham & his descendants, as outlined in (Genesis 17). In fact,I read in vs 7, that is was made to be an "everlasting covenant".

  As I see it, when God makes a deal, He sticks with it..even tough sometimes it pains Him to do so.  Yes, Israel has drifted far from him, but that has been their pattern throughout their history.
   I tend to think He reinforced this covenant in (Jer 31:35-37), correct wher you see it.
 
   

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Read full chapter

 
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2021, 02:43:20 AM »
.
  Does Israel get away.."clean as a whistle"?  Nope! not inthe least!

  It is said that 'all Israel will be saved'..  Perhaps that means all that survive wil be saved..see (Ezek 5).

  THis is notto be confused withthe one third divisions found in (Rev 9), since it is aimed at Israel.

  How many times did God regret His covenant with Abraham's seed?  It sure seems like it has been often!

  ..But then, perhaps some of us has come to regret some contract we signed..

  No, Isaelis not so special that they need special treatment in the world...although I admire their tenacity and courage, in holding what is theirs, and keeping a beacon of light going in a dark part of the world.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2021, 04:09:10 AM »
I don't see the covenant in phases, i.e. Israel as one, then everyone else second. It was spoken to the Jews first, yes but it was never limited to them. It was always for everybody, and there have always been believing non-Jews (Rahab is an example.) Plain reading of Jesus' words indicate that if we believe Israel is synonymous with a particular tribe of people related by blood and a nation, then we are mistaken ... we are thinking with the mind of the flesh, and not the mind of the spirit. We are looking at the outside appearance (1 Samuel) and not at the heart. There have been many people born into Israel who are not believers, and will not partake in the only way by which anyone can be saved. And there are many people not born into Israel who are still yet receiving the promise made to Israel (or Paul is a liar). So we're left with realizing that when Jesus talked about not all in Israel are Israel, he was separating the physical (genetic, tribal, blood) from the spiritual (believers). I'm left to conclude that from the beginning, there has only been one promise and while it was given to particular tribe to proclaim to the nations, that tribe has no special category of salvation, no dispensation, or outpouring of special grace, than me or you.

Replacement theology views baptism is the replacement for cirumcision ... if circumcision made you part of Israel, then baptism today makes you part of Israel (i.e. God's chosen people). Its ironically a carry forward from dispensational theology which believes the circumcised have one plan of salvation, and the rest of us have a different one - a parallel one. But Paul says Baptism is for the individual to identify with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Neither Jew nor Greek matters then for those who have identified with him and are in Christ. There has only every been one plan of salvation, for anyone, revealed first to a particular group of folks who were supposed to in turn reveal it to everyone else, but did not. With the veil torn, all of us are entrusted with the message of reconciliation, but many of us do not.

The only blood line that matters is that of Adam's. The only covenant is the Gospel which was repeated to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. Hebrews tells us that those who believed the one Gospel in each repetition by faith are saved, regardless of tribe, nationality, or blood.
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2021, 05:05:01 AM »
But the need for the blood was not eliminated
Now I'm confused.     The blood of animals is not as pure as that of JESUS.    My simple mind tells me that blood sacrifices were no longer needed.
Need help here.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2021, 06:37:07 AM »
But the need for the blood was not eliminated
Now I'm confused.     The blood of animals is not as pure as that of JESUS.    My simple mind tells me that blood sacrifices were no longer needed.
Need help here.

Sorry if that seemed confusing ... the need for blood sacrifice was not eliminated, but it was never the blood of animals. The only blood that mattered back then and through today was that of Jesus. For those that are apart from Christ today, they still need blood shed on their behalf in order to be justified and reconciled to God - the blood of Christ. God didn't take away the temple, or the places of sacrifice, because he didn't do away with the law ... it was fulfilled in Jesus. But we are still condemned by it even today, still need blood shed for us, if we are not in Christ. God left the temple up I think to remind us that we're still in need of all the temple taught us about the law and forgiveness and worship.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2021, 09:23:05 AM »
From TN;

  " Replacement theology views baptism is the replacement for cirumcision ... if circumcision made you part of Israel, then baptism today makes you part of Israel (i.e. God's chosen people). Its ironically a carry forward from dispensational theology which believes the circumcised have one plan of salvation, and the rest of us have a different one - a parallel one. I have considered replacement theology to be off base, but was not aware rthat replacement for circumcision was part of it...or different plans of salvation.

  But Paul says Baptism is for the individual to identify with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Neither Jew nor Greek matters then for those who have identified with him and are in Christ. There has only every been one plan of salvation, for anyone, revealed first to a particular group of folks who were supposed to in turn reveal it to everyone else, but did not. With the veil torn, all of us are entrusted with the message of reconciliation, but many of us do not.Yes!  The priests were supposed to inform the people, but they were neglegent.  THe system eventually slid into the Sadducees and the Pharisees..and it appears that today's rabbinical system is a modified Phaisacial system. So, today's Israel is far in "arrears"..even those who are practicing Jews. Do you think those who were credited with reviving Israel, such as Josiah, actually had a handle on the true Messianic plan!  For example, Isaiah was an older contemporary of Josiah.  (Isaiah 52,53)

The only blood line that matters is that of Adam's. The only covenant is the Gospel which was repeated to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. Hebrews tells us that those who believed the one Gospel in each repetition by faith are saved, >regardless of tribe, nationality, or blood<."  Whosoever will, may come...God is not willing that any should perish.

  *
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2021, 09:36:07 AM »
I don't see the covenant in phases, i.e. Israel as one, then everyone else second. It was spoken to the Jews first, yes but it was never limited to them. It was always for everybody, and there have always been believing non-Jews (Rahab is an example.) Plain reading of Jesus' words indicate that if we believe Israel is synonymous with a particular tribe of people related by blood and a nation, then we are mistaken ... we are thinking with the mind of the flesh, and not the mind of the spirit. We are looking at the outside appearance (1 Samuel) and not at the heart. There have been many people born into Israel who are not believers, and will not partake in the only way by which anyone can be saved. And there are many people not born into Israel who are still yet receiving the promise made to Israel (or Paul is a liar). So we're left with realizing that when Jesus talked about not all in Israel are Israel, he was separating the physical (genetic, tribal, blood) from the spiritual (believers). I'm left to conclude that from the beginning, there has only been one promise and while it was given to particular tribe to proclaim to the nations, that tribe has no special category of salvation, no dispensation, or outpouring of special grace, than me or you.

Replacement theology views baptism is the replacement for cirumcision ... if circumcision made you part of Israel, then baptism today makes you part of Israel (i.e. God's chosen people). Its ironically a carry forward from dispensational theology which believes the circumcised have one plan of salvation, and the rest of us have a different one - a parallel one. But Paul says Baptism is for the individual to identify with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Neither Jew nor Greek matters then for those who have identified with him and are in Christ. There has only every been one plan of salvation, for anyone, revealed first to a particular group of folks who were supposed to in turn reveal it to everyone else, but did not. With the veil torn, all of us are entrusted with the message of reconciliation, but many of us do not.

The only blood line that matters is that of Adam's. The only covenant is the Gospel which was repeated to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. Hebrews tells us that those who believed the one Gospel in each repetition by faith are saved, regardless of tribe, nationality, or blood.

Now THAT is the truth! Well put TN.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2021, 05:43:24 AM »
IG, I've been meditating on your verse ... great verse. And in an odd way, tearing the veil let God out of the box. I say it that way in that it appears that the Jews began to live as though He was not everywhere all the time, but like a pagan idol, occupied a fix point in the universe, namely behind the veil. They wouldn't have said that, but how you act says more about what you believe that what you say. And they acted like they could break all the commandments all the time, but in the temple where God lived, they cleaned up, acted right, made the sacrifices, etc.

Tearing the veil not only let us in, but let God out. He's no longer constrained to a place only one person could go. Not that He ever was mind you, just that like many functionally believe today, God doesn't just come down to the churches on Sunday, and go back up to heaven after potluck. He's omni present, veil or no veil.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2021, 04:46:44 PM »
  .
   From TN.. "And they acted like they could break all the commandments all the time, but in the temple where God lived, they cleaned up, acted right, made the sacrifices, etc."

  That error seems to persist, today we have actual, practicing Antinomians.  ...But in doing so, they have to conveniently ignore (Romans 6:1,2)

  The tearing of the veil...

   A) eliminated the animal sacrifice. (must be a tough one for practicing Jews, seems they must simply ignore that feature)

  B)  It Abolished the intercessory role of the priests.  We can approach the throne boldly, in the name of our only mediator.

  C)  You are of course correct, when you say it let God "out of the box"!  It demonstrates powerfully, why and how Jesus turned to the Gentiles.

  "“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"  (Matthew 23:37)

  The tearing of that curtain, blew things wide open, also melding the old covenant into the new !

  Oh..and yes..prayer goes with the study...  I pray for a faithful exposition of the word, and for minds and hearts that will be receptive.
  Praying the same for you also..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2021, 04:39:38 AM »
.
  In a sense, the veil represents Jesus' flesh being torn for us..that is we who are are outside the 'Holy of Holies', even far from the temple.

  ..And as Jesus said, and nobody has a "head start" !    "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father, except through me" (John 14:6)   ..No exceptions...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2021, 06:05:32 AM »
Praying for you today my friend; sure the folks were blessed, and God was glorified!
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Preaching next Sunday..check key verses.3
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2021, 06:16:47 AM »
Praying for you today my friend; sure the folks were blessed, and God was glorified!
I'm sure you are right.
I have a couple of videos of Ironglow, first, preaching in his Church, second, A masterpiece of wrought iron telling the history of the Bible.
Ironglow is a very talented man in many ways.

You oughta see the size of his hands. :)
Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     Patrick Henry

Give me liberty, or give me death
                                     bugeye