Author Topic: "TRADITIONAL".... (Read 2150 times)

PowderFlask2 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 18, 2004, 10:54:51 AM »

rollingb

I think you and I have missed the boat and now I see the light.

I am going to get me a bolt rifle in 458 Winchester magnum and I'll put primed brass in it, BUT I'LL LOAD THE POWDER AND BULLETS FROM THE MUZZLE !

Its an old cartridge so it must be traditional

Wonder how that will go over at the next woods walk!

rollingb · « **Reply #31 on:** March 18, 2004, 11:34:02 AM »

PowderFlask2,..... 'Least you'll be able to use them "new-fangled jacketed-bullets" in'er!!

I'll still use the "traditional load" of,.... blackpowder/conical lead-bullets, in my 1871 NYSM 50-70 rollin-block!!

KING · « **Reply #32 on:** March 18, 2004, 03:11:40 PM »

and to think today.......someone asked my why I enjoy monitoring this forum.................O.K..I just got my 2nd model Brown Bess in(.75).my .20ga Northwest Trade gun,and My Gibbs .451 target rifle in. No...have not shot em as of yet......I checked kinda mentally and found that I am guilty of having some cut flints around....and a couple sets of peeps on some of my guns( my age helps with this excuse......a little),but No fake powder anyplace that I can find. Ok.......Im kinda close. Yup..............the word means the same thing to me guys.................stay safe.............King :-D

rollingb · « **Reply #33 on:** March 18, 2004, 04:46:52 PM »

King,.... If yore "cut" flints are yore greatest "sin",.... I'd say you was do'n purty darned good!!

Peep sights have been historicaly documented (tho they weren't like the commercial "peeps" be'n sold today),...... so historicaly, yore only guilty of 'bout "1 1/2 things" out of the possible "15 things" thet I listed. (not "too bad" in my book!! :agree:

)

I'm continualy try'n to be more "TRADITIONAL", with my traditional-style muzzleloaders (thru research and documentation), and I'll be the first to admit thet,... the "goal" of be'n 100% traditional, is UN-attainable!!

BUT!!.... I keep try'n,........ 'cause if all of us give-up on "tradition", our future generations stand to LOSE sumpthin "SPECIAL"!!

Always at yore service,
rollingb

crow_feather · « **Reply #34 on:** March 19, 2004, 02:46:32 AM »

Traditional is not something that you can put your finger on and say "thar tis" It's more of a way of mind. Sort of a YING and YANG of black powder shootin. It's a song on the winds of stuffin a muzzle. It's sorta like Rollingb a standin in his winder in his winter shorts. Sorta there, but yet, sorta not. Thus sayin, I"ll wander away ta pick a patunia.

I think I've been in the cabin too long.

C F

rollingb · « **Reply #35 on:** March 19, 2004, 05:05:48 AM »

Crow Feather,.... Yore see'n yore own "reflection" agin in my winder,... thet's why, when you move,.. the image in tha winder "disapears"!!

:-D

The word "traditional" can best describe anythin handed down to us, "generation to generation" and can include anythin from "customs" to "tools".

"Tools" (such as weapons), must still be "used or operated" un-changed in function today, as they were in the past,.... in order to remain "TRADITIONAL".

Some of you will say thet "jacketed bullets" and "smokeless powder" would be considered TRADITIONAL under this definition,... which is absolutely "TRUE",..... as long as, they are used in the "same" firearms for which they were originaly developed.

Jacketed bullets and smokeless powder are now "traditional" in rifles and pistols,.... but,... only as far back in history as ther "introduction" thru military usage can be confirmed. (BTW "military-use" nearly ALWAYS pre-dates "sporting-use".)

"Armies and war", are the (traditional) "mother and father", of weapons-developement!!

My first post on this subject, was a request for consideration, in regards to "what you use" in/on yore muzzleloaders to keep the "tradition" of TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADERS alive and go'n strong!! (nuthin more and nuthin less!)

PowderFlask2 · « **Reply #36 on:** March 19, 2004, 09:44:02 AM »

I have never been on the Inline page but I think I'll go over there to see if they are talking about flintlocks

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #37 on:** March 19, 2004, 11:08:11 AM »

Rollingb,

On the one hand I understand your gripe, on the other hand I have to wonder where you want to go with this or how far.

I agree "tradition" means something be it behavior or item that is handed down through the generations.

However, each generation has always had the privilege of adding something to it. Thus the contemporary form of hunting can be said to be "traditional".

However, can you agree that some things can be MORE traditional than others? I.e. there is more about that custom or tool that is unchanged.

We could probably all agree that a Christmas tree is traditional. However, a real, live, balsam tree is MORE traditional than a scotch pine, which is MORE traditional than a plastic tree. Lights on the tree are traditional, but candles would be MORE traditional.

I agree that we should all strive to maintain traditions, but we live in a real world. We have real mortgages, real grass that needs to be cut, and real families that demand our time. It's more important to maintain some traditions than others. Religious traditions are paramount, family and cultural traditions come next, and recreational traditions are farther down the line.

It often happens that two priorities conflict. I come home from an afternoon at the shooting range with my flintlock all sooty. Tradition would dictate that I promptly bathe the gun in water if I knew I was not going to fire it again soon. However, when I walk in the door my wife usually throws a crying baby in my face before the door even closes behind me. So, I give my flintlock a quick run-down with WD-40, and come back to it at my leisure.

WD-40 is certainly not a traditional tool with respect to flintlocks. I don't pretend that it is. However, does my use of this 20th century substance mean that my posts belong on the MODERN inline forum?

That's just it. The word traditional is clear, no doubt about that. But in terms of qualifying for messages on this board, it's a matter of HOW traditional everything has to be. Where should the line be drawn, and WHO has the authority to draw it?

Unless you are the moderator I don't think you have any more authority than a guy who posts questions about his Lyman Great Plains Hunter.

May I suggest thinking real hard about what it is that bothers you? Is it that someone else uses plastic sabots? Or is it that the prevalence of "tech-talk" seems to come at the expense of good traditional tips and discussion?

Or perhaps it should be a matter of "direction". If a guy comes here seeking advice on a problem - do we as a message board community steer him towards a more primitive solution or do we suggest a modern bail-out? If it's stuff like that that bothers you I'm behind you 100%.

Maybe we should have a self-impose rule from here on. If a guys seeks advice we should publicly advise him in a primitive approach, if we want to tell him some "WD-40" type advice we should send him a private message.

rollingb · « **Reply #38 on:** March 19, 2004, 12:29:49 PM »

Black Jaque Janaviac wrote:

Quote

That's just it. The word traditional is clear, no doubt about that. But in terms of qualifying for messages on this board, it's a matter of HOW traditional everything has to be. Where should the line be drawn, and WHO has the authority to draw it?

Unless you are the moderator I don't think you have any more authority than a guy who posts questions about his Lyman Great Plains Hunter.
May I suggest thinking real hard about what it is that bothers you? Is it that someone else uses plastic sabots? Or is it that the prevalence of "tech-talk" seems to come at the expense of good traditional tips and discussion?

Or perhaps it should be a matter of "direction". If a guy comes here seeking advice on a problem - do we as a message board community steer him towards a more primitive solution or do we suggest a modern bail-out? If it's stuff like that that bothers you I'm behind you 100%

Well, I'm certainly not a "moderator" on this forum, and I hope thet I don't appear as tho, I want to be one. :eek: ('cause I doubt thet I could do near as "GOOD'A JOB" as King!!)
I admit, thet I ain't too good with words, and I sometimes have a liddle trouble express'n my opinions.

Anyway,... with the above "qoute",.... I think you are begin'n to understand what my opinon is in regards to use'n "modern components" in traditional-style muzzleloaders, and maybe, how I view "jacketed bullets and plastic sabots" to be out-of-place on a forum didicated to TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADERS.

I've mentioned in my other post, thet be'n 100% "traditional" (in this day and age) is UN-attainable.
But, we can still come close, if we use the "traditional components" available to us today.

You mentioned Lyman's GPH with fast-twist barrel (which is un-traditional) but folks have bought'em and want to shoot'em.

May I suggest thet "if" they want to use "jacketed bullets" in'em, thet we steer them to the MODERN MUZZLELOADER site, wher such bullets are disccused on a dailey-basis.
"If" they are ask'n 'bout "cast conicals" then maybe we can offer some advice, which pretains to a bullet-type thet dates back to the Civil War.

"Fake" powder,..... I don't have as much of a "problem" with, if it's used as a propellent for "roundballs".
I realize thet some "concessions" must be evident on this forum, but I also think thet if we allow a "free-for-all",.... TRADITION will suffer!!

I hope, I ain't sound'n like a "moderator" by state'n my opinions,.... but,.... if the word "traditional" is never discussed on a TRADITIONAL-forum,..... "WHER" DO WE DISCUSS IT?

??

PowderFlask2 · « **Reply #39 on:** March 19, 2004, 12:34:46 PM »

Black Jaque

I am sure rollingb can, and will answer for himself however,

I sign on to this page to look at info on flintlocks and persucktion guns and the items you normally use with those guns.

"TRADITIONAL Muzzle loading Rifles & Shotguns"

If they did not have a page for inlines, which I assume are normally used with sabots, jacketed bullets etc, then this would be the place to talk about them.

But they do

"MODERN INLINE Muzzle loading Rifles & Shotguns"

But as I have NOOOO desire to look at, read about, shoot or have anything to do with an inline, I will not sing on to that page and I can't fiqure out why some one with an inline would even sign on to a "Traditional" page.

Not trying to be pissy or Holier than thou, just have different interests

Ironwood · « **Reply #40 on:** March 19, 2004, 12:38:42 PM »

Well shucks... since I shoot a CVA Hawken with a 1-48 twist. I shoot REAL Bullets that I cast with a Lee electric Production Pot and lube with beeswax and crisco. I also use .490 roundballs that I cast and lube patches, that I cut from Wal-Mart pillow ticking, with Moosemilk. I shouldn't be posting in this "Traditional Forum". I also use a 4 Wheeler to haul out my game. Wear camo and use plastic speed loaders. I even use black powder that is delivered to my house by a big brown truck. Son of a gun... I guess even though I shoot a sidelock rifle, and love it, I'll have to join the in-line forum.

rollingb · « **Reply #41 on:** March 19, 2004, 01:14:08 PM »

Ironwood,.... I must'a missed tha "discussion" wher things such as,..... 4-wheelers, "camo", UPS trucks, 'lectric pots, and WalMart,..... were mentioned.

You (mistake'nly) refered to this place as a "Traditional Forum",.... I believe the "correct" name of this forum is,..... "TRADITIONAL Muzzle Loader Rifles & Shotguns"!! (Everthin "ELSE" is irrelevant!)

I think some fellas, "go-to-EXTREMES",..... to appear "insulted"!! :-D :-D :-D

Ironwood · « **Reply #42 on:** March 19, 2004, 01:45:34 PM »

RB..
Didn't feel insulted... just felt unwanted.

Sorry you mis-understood that. As far as my saying "Traditional Forum" I was almost positive evereyone knew this was a "muzzleloading" forum. Guess I was mistaken about that. Some folks go to extremes to be insulting.

rollingb · « **Reply #43 on:** March 19, 2004, 03:09:17 PM »

Ironwood,.... I've been sit'n here for 'bout 30 minutes try'n to think of a "way" to reply to yore post!!

I guess it's gonna take me longer'n thet,.... to "figger out" what yore even complain'n 'bout!!

mean while,... why don't you go back and "re-read" all my posts!!

In the mean-time I'll try'n think of some tender way to tell you thet I have never insulted yore,.....

4-wheeler
WalMart
Camo
CVA
REAL bullets
UPS trucks
Electric melt'n-pots
Moose milk
Crisco

Tho for "some reason" you seem to believe thet I have!!

Ironwood · « **Reply #44 on:** March 19, 2004, 03:24:33 PM »

Why is it that when you say you are not insulted...... some folks just keep on insisting that you have been...... Now that might be getting real close to being insulting....

RB. To start with I didn't address my original post to you personally... I'm sorry you took it that way, however if the shoe should fit, then wear it. As far as I'm concerned this is the end of the discussion with you. Post what you wish I will not be reading it nor replying to it. You managed to get rid of all the in-line shooters, now you've gotten rid of at least one sidelock shooter.

rollingb · « **Reply #45 on:** March 19, 2004, 03:58:23 PM »

Ironwood,... From the content of yore first post on this subject, I can only conclude thet you were look'n for an "excuse" to leave anyway!! (Seem's like sort of a "strange thing" to do,.... if you WEREN'T insulted!!) :eek:

Ohio Joe · « **Reply #46 on:** March 20, 2004, 02:51:43 AM »

To me, traditional means a cut off point in history where one can look at their chosen interest and truly say to themselves, "My equipment is period correct for this time frame in history." Why read anymore into it then that??? This board is called; "Traditional Muzzle Loading Rifles & Shotguns"... To me that is clear enough, no synthetics, no fake powder, no inlines, no high power rifle scopes, no sabots, no conicals, the list could stretch from here to tomorrow... More and more each year you see the manufactures pushing more synthetic stocked inline junk on the market with easier loading and cleaning methods along with fake powder and bullets they claim are the best thing since who knows what... I have yet to see where an inline could out perform a good ol' wood stocked , sidelock, flint or percussion muzzle loader, what shoots good ol' real black powder and patched round balls... Yes, I am a traditionalist, and when I Rendezvous my cut off date is 1840! When I hunt the primative muzzle loading season my cut off date is again, 1840! My equipmet will reflect this!!!

PowderFlask2 · « **Reply #47 on:** March 20, 2004, 03:21:33 AM »

When did a CVA become an inline?

When did cast bullets from a lee pot become Jacketed

I think your right RB some people are looking for a reason to get offended

Tell me how to cast a better bullet and what ball diameter and patch thickness you are using. How much of the Holy black do you shove down her.

and do you put the powder in first or the ball

crow_feather · « **Reply #48 on:** March 20, 2004, 04:48:54 AM »

Rollingb,
Did that Ironwood fella's first post sound to you like he was a "traditionalist"? He sounded to me like he was lookin for a reason. As far as gettin rid of the in-line shooters, I take insult that you did it alone. I liked to believe that I helped.

C F

rollingb · « **Reply #49 on:** March 20, 2004, 05:59:27 AM »

Ohio Joe,..... Like you,.. I also use the 1840 "cut-off" date, even tho "trade guns" and "trade rifles", continued to be made after thet date.

I checked on the fellas who dispute the mean'n of "traditional", and I see they frequent and contribute to,.... the "MODERN inline forum",.... so, it stands to reason they ain't as enthusiastic 'bout "tradition" as some of us!!

rollingb · « **Reply #50 on:** March 20, 2004, 06:17:56 AM »

Crow Feather,.... :-D :-D :-D :-D YEAH!!!!!.... Ironwood's post kind'a sounded like he was give'n me "ALL" tha credit,..... when he should have give'n you at least "HALF" of it!! :-D :-D :-D :-D

I guess he thinks I done ALL the "vote'n" too, to seperate the different-type muzzleloaders into 2 seperate "camps"!! (I know for'a "fact" thet at least HALF them "votes",.... was YORE'S!!

:-D

:-D )

"NO"!!!!... I don't think he gives all thet much thot to "TRADTION", and I see thet he was already post'n on the "other" site (thet he threatened to run-off to)!!

filmokentucky · « **Reply #51 on:** March 20, 2004, 07:52:33 AM »

For me, traditional muzzle loading rifles and shotguns are of a style that existed in the historical period when they were THE guns that were in use---say up until 1865 or so. Weren't any plastic stocked, stainless steel, sabot squirting pop guns around then so far as I know.
A little while ago, after a flaming war, a separate forum was split off for in-line shooters as it was realized that the differences between the two schools of thought were too vast for them co-exist under one heading. So, I don't really understand how we got to this point again or why a side lock shooter would feel he has to leave. Hope you'll reconsider and agree to disagree.

rollingb · « **Reply #52 on:** March 20, 2004, 09:41:29 AM »

Fimokentucky wrote:

Quote

A little while ago, after a flaming war, a separate forum was split off for in-line shooters as it was realized that the differences between the two schools of thought were too vast for them co-exist under one heading. So, I don't really understand how we got to this point again or why a side lock shooter would feel he has to leave. Hope you'll reconsider and agree to disagree.

Flimokentucky,.... Thets how I remember this become'n a "TRADITIONAL Muzzle Loading Rifle & Shotgun" forum, also!!

(Not a "traditional forum",..... which is a WHOLE DIFFERENT "ball-game", for them thet don't realize it :eek: :shock:!!!!)

,....and,.... I like you,... I see no reason for anyone to leave because they have the mistaken "feel'n", thet maybe we don't like "what" they wear, ride, cast balls with, color of ther unnerwear, the WalMart they shop at, or the UPS truck thet delivers all ther "goodies",.... 'cause we don't talk ONLY,...."TRADITIONAL Transportation, Cloths, Delivery Service, Melt'n Pots, Wrought Iron Barrels, or,.... Dry Goods Merchantile Stores",..... here, which has been insinuated by some!!!!

:-D

filmokentucky · « **Reply #53 on:** March 20, 2004, 10:02:03 AM »

That's right! The loads we discuss simply don't apply to in-lines--- we don't use sabots and such and even the twist rates are different. And in-liners aren't interested in the truly important issues--like whether the bevel goes up or down on a flint. This is one of life's great philosophical quandries---never to be solved by mortal man. I rest my case.

crow_feather · « **Reply #54 on:** March 20, 2004, 01:08:34 PM »

filmokentucky,

My o my o my,

Everyone that matters in the world knows that the bevel goes up. Otherwise it would be goin down and that ain't right.

C F