IHMSA Rule

[deadeyedick]

I am new to silly wets and have been told that to shoot in the factory production class with my TC I can only use TC Factory barrels. Yet I would be competing against MOA's and other High priced guns with custom barrels. Seems that in the IHMSA air gun rules there is a limit on what a production gun can cost. Since TC is no longer making factory 10" 7tcu barrels am I going to have to buy used barrels until I find one that shoots. Seems like I ought to be able to buy a custom barrel or the rules should be changed to be more competitive.
Rich  

[Hammer47]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery from the desire to see a rules change in IHMSA that makes any sense or levels the playing field.  Regards... Gary

[# 566]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery from the desire to see a rules change in IHMSA that makes any sense or levels the playing field.  Regards... Gary

very well put, though it should read ANY rule, ect. :roll:  :roll:

[B_Koes]

Rich,

I've already started fighting this battle by posting on IHMSA's forums.  I feel strongly about this issue so I'm ready to fight through some resistance.  There is a couple of factors at play here (Contenders competing against BF's & MOA's in addition to the availability of Contender barrels now that T/C has stopped regular production of the 10" barrels).  Personally, I think that I would be satisfied to compete with my Contender if I were allowed to use a barrel from one of the aftermarket makers of Contender barrel makers.

Personally, I'm not ready to accept the status quo because IHMSA doesn't make sense.  I think we could drum up some grassroots support for this.

Send me some suggestions worded in such a way that they could be added to the description of the "production" category gun.  While I wasn't sure I wanted to fight this battle on my own, I think that I'd be happy to take the lead on this knowing that there are others feeling the same way.

Send rule suggestions to bkoesser@hotmail.com

Bret

[Hammer47]

Bret.  I most certainly agree with you on the barrel idea.  I also feel that it is unfair to ask a competitor who happens to use a Contender to be hamstrung with the garbage bbls usually produced by TC.  It is also unfair to have to buy several bbls to find a decent shooter as Deadeye brought up.  It is no secret that the finer single shot pistols used in IHMSA are thinly veiled benchrest equippment.  Nothing at all wrong with the pursuit of fine accuracy but why legislate accuracy only to the high priced equippment?  This is far from fair.......................But perhaps we are putting the cart before the horse with the problem of bbls WHEN ONE CANNOT EVEN RETAP A STRIPPED SCOPE BASE HOLE OR DRILL OUT THE PUNY 6/48 WITH THE MUCH SUPERIOR 8/40 and remain legal in the production classes.  Let's call it like it is. Chickenshit is chickenshit, always was and always will be.  I tell you true, if it were left up to the rules of this game instead of the GREAT people who participate in it, I would probably take my goldfish for a walk instead of shoot. Why can't the crapola nickle and dime rules be flushed where they belong and then move on to the other problems like the bbl issues?  
DON'T YOU THINK THAT AT SOME TIME COMMON SENSE WOULD KICK IN AND THE RULES WOULD BE AMMENDED TO ENCOURAGE SHOOTING RATHER THAN DISCOURAGE IT?  I really do not mean to be too caustic but DAMN, some of the rules in our game are downright stupid.  Regards... Gary

[B_Koes]

I will cast my vote AGAINST it unless you guys are prepared to include modern inexpensive factory revolvers with factory porting, factory grips and factory everything else.

I have a Raging Bull and have to compete in unlimited. I see no reason to support a rules change that allows single-shots a better advantage. On the other hand, I'm no where near being competitive outside of the barn, so to speak, so it really doesn't bother me. I shoot UAS and US both with iron sights, standing, just because that is how I would be shooting in a hunting situation.

Besides, is anyone shooting a TC actually afraid of competing against a $500 Brazillian wheelgun?

First of all, why spitefully speak out against one rule change because you have a different cause?  Each rule should be judged on the basis of its own merit.  You are proposing a "barter" system much like our current legislature and EVERYBODY knows what an awful entity they are for making progress.  Let's not go backwards, but push for an entity that correctly reflects the participants.  Propose your rule change also...I see no reason why a bone stock factory gun should have to compete as unlimited.  (Unless it is that pesky 10" barrel limitation)

So why cannot your revolver qualify as production?

[ScottB]

I humbly apologize for my tone.

The implication is that a TC in 7TCU is a poor choice for production, and a rules change is needed to "fix" that. I really, really doubt that. There are platforms that excel in a given class, there are those that are worthless in all the classes. I don't see jennings 22s listed much on the high scoreing rimfire platforms.

I do not want special consideration for the Raging Bull. I thought you might see the sarcasm in the analogy. I'll expand; It is illegal for revolver or production because it is ported from the factory. I don't whine, I just shoot it and smile. But lets say I asked for, and recieved, a waiver to shoot in revolver class. Now Dan Wesson starts making a factory ported barrel standard on a new model. It should also recieve the same consideration. Well, what about TCs? It goes on and on. A percieved "hindrance" is labeled unfair, and special "handicaps" are granted. That is why I will stand against this proposal. Hey, I'm only one vote.

I think if you want to truly compete in a given class, you have to put together a well thought out platform, and that isn't easy or cheap. If you just want to see how well you can shoot with your actual hunting tools, just go shoot, classes be danged. In fact, I would like to see them get rid of production and revolver, and base the classes on target size, shooting position and sights alone. Those 3 variables alone can determine 8 separate classes.

[ScottB]

Gary,

maybe I should clarify something based on your frustrations. I do think there is silliness written in the rules, but in the example you mentioned, it does not make the gun illegal, just not production. Likewise with a better barrel. Unless I read the rules wrong.

Once again, if you based classes on the three things I suggested, you would have the following big-bore classes:

Standing, open sight, full size (S)
Standing, open sight, half scale (SHS)
Standing, any sight, full size (SAS)
Standing, any sight, half scale (SASHS)
Any position, open sight, full size (U)
Any position, open sight, half scale (UHS)
Any position, any sight, full size (UAS)
Any position, any sight, half scale (UASHS)

your frustrations about piddly rules and big money guns vs home-engineered guns go away. No need for a mile long list of acceptable production guns either. In fact, I really don't think that some of the talent I've seen needs to spend a fortune to be good. They simply are good shots.

[deadeyedick]

I know we are beating a dead horse here but. My concern was with the total discrepancy within IHMSA between the two siihouette disaplines.
Air and high power pistol. In air there is a dollar limit on the gun. I can not use my IZH46 because it costs too much. Now we come to high power and there is no such rule, anything goes as long as a factory made it. I would put my TC up against any gun if I had the opportunity to buy a decent barrel. Nothing special, just on made by some one who takes a little pride in what they sell and does it right. After market barrels look the same, smell the same, feel the same but they sure do not shoot the same as factory barrels.  If a gun is eliminated because of porting that's fine as long as it applies to all guns. Some where there was a little sanity and the use of Bomar sights is allowed. Hardly anything like the TC sights.
Rich

[Hammer47]

Scott.... The reason I brought these rules to light was based on the prod style shooting.   I picked it because it will most probably be the one most new shooters will start out with.  HAD I READ THE RULES BEFORE BEGINNING SILHOUETTE I MOST PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE BOTHERED.   That would have been a huge loss as now that I have been in IHMSA for one season and met a GREAT bunch of guys both locally and at the Internationals I would not trade it for the world.  So you tell me, why make the rules so a guy can't start out on a budget and improve his firearm as he goes [ ie. recrown, trigger work , refinish, repair and retap poor screw holes, REPLACE PISS POOR FACTORY BBL WITH A HIGH GRADE BBL,etc ] Hell, let's do all we can to chase this new shooter away................. What do we want with new shooters anyhow?.........................Catch my drift?  Let's make it easier, not harder.  Regards... Gary

[# 566]

UNTILL we as the general membership are informed as to WHY every one of the 26 or so rules changes was voted down , all WE are doing here is venting,
Everyone who reads this and shoots with their regional director should very nicely ask their reasons for voting down such requested changes as the aftermarket BBL or the modified scope for PAS.
I for one would really like to know some of the thinking (?) behind only changing one rule.
WayneS

[Pdx]

Since TC is no longer making factory 10" 7tcu barrels am I going to have to buy used barrels until I find one that shoots. Seems like I ought to be able to buy a custom barrel or the rules should be changed to be more competitive.
Rich  

Look at fox ridge for a 7TCU bbl, allowed in prod on a TC.

[ScottB]

Maybe I am being one sided here. I can definitely sympathize with the intent to bring in people. I could be convinced of the need for specific changes if it would substantially remove barriers from a new shooter's fun.

But lets not forget, the vast majority of young shooters (in IHMSA terms) are into the Glocks, HKs and the like. Until you remove the "single shot race gun" from dominance, most new shooters will be intimidated or just plain uninterested. And I don't see that changing, just like NASCAR isn't going to allow minivans so that new drivers can get into the sport easier. You would attract more new shooters with a class like "combat pistol" that required all 10 targets fall in the first 2 minute bank. Why? Because joe-mall-ninja now has something useful to do with his 50AE Desert Eagle. Or "Magnum Field Pistol" for those 480 Rugers and BFR in 45-70.

I see the biggest controversies regarding production class. I'm not convinced that tweaking the rules is ever going to end it. If the original intent of the class was to make it possible for someone to just buy a pistol, open the box and shoot it with the big boys, well, they can. And some manufacturers capitalize on this, and they should. Why even have this class? It seems too artificail to me.

[hms]

I sat at the recent delegates meeting of the Tusco internationals like a good school boy being told how things were going to be from the board of directors.  There was "NO" reasonable explanation given when questioned about adopting the use of aftermarket barrels for production.  The delegates were not asked for input and were not allowed to vote.  As a matter of fact the issue was decided long before the delegate's meeting (sermon).  The membership SHOULD decide this matter and not the board of directors.  It is the member's organization and it is we who should have the input and the vote on what is legal and what is not.  Our current rules only alienates new shooters.  Take a good look at attendance around the country at most matches it is apparent that interest in silhouette is waining.

[# 566]

HMS, WELL PUT

[7br]

Seems to me the more modifications we allow on production guns, the closer they become to unlimited guns.  

As a dead serious question, How would you rewrite the production rule so that it would not turn into a lighter, shorter unlimited gun?  We already allow aftermarket sights, grips and a trigger job.  I seem to remember that the production rule was modified to allow custom engraving as long as it didn't serve as an artificial aid.

As for cost, I can't believe that a contender with a custom barrel, sights and a trigger job will be that much less than a brand new B/F.

Higher in this thread someone mentioned the dominance of expensive single shot pistols in the production category as driving the Glock shooters away.  I don't think any Glock, no matter how much customization, would shoot with my "cheap" contender at silhouette ranges.  They are very good at what they are designed for, which isn't long range shooting.

As far as the contender barrels not being accurate, I would say I have had a couple of clinkers, but for the most part, I can get 2" at 100yards with most of the ones I have seen.  You can still get almost any caliber you want from Fox Ridge and still be production legal.  Lets face it, unless you are an International class shooter, chances are your contender can outshoot you.  

I don't see what the big fuss is about.

[hms]

We already have 2 production classes in Small Bore and Big Bore.  Aside from caliber differences the results are the same.  

Production:  Uses standard Thompson Contenders

Unlimited Production:  Uses BF's and MOA's


I'm not downing anyone for using the BF or MOA.  I use them.  However, they are a distinct advantage over many of the factory contender barrels.  The TC may shoot as well but you have to spend the time and money to get a barrel that will shoot as good as the BF or MOA.

[# 566]

BR & akihmsa, OK whats your argument against allowing modified scopes in PAS, that modification includes aftermarket target knobs and flip up and tinted lens covers.

[# 566]

At the 2002 Int. S. Riddle was handed a list of over 50 signatures of shooters from across the US that were in favor of the scope rule change. Many  NRA shooters offered to sign the petition but it was felt that this was a ihmsa  issue.
NRA allows the scope modifications  in their H/P , so when you read or hear something about doing things to attract NRA crossovers, well I say it's a load of really ripe B S

[IHMSAeditor]

Fellow Shooters! As an aside to Kelly's comments concerning running for office if you wish certain changes, we will be electing a new president this year.  It will be the first year the entire membership can vote.  Two questions: If you want change, will you run?  If you want change will you vote? Or, will it be like always with only one nominee elected by only 150  votes?  Steve

[ScottB]

566,

Your issue is one I can support. To me, "any sight" means just that. Simplification of a rule is generally a good thing, in my opinion. There is no doubt that optics can make a significant difference in scores, so much so that it should be a class determinate. And since you posted this question to akihmsa, let me try and apply it to his criteria:

Will this change I am advocating attract new members?

It sure makes it easy for the unitiated. Scope or iron sights? Not much question about which category something falls into. Buying a used custom IHMSA piece is sure easier this way.

Will this change retain members that might be or have already left the IHMSA?

I don't know, but I don't see it causing any grief. Those who want the 34X whangerdoodle model K GPS gyro stabilized, satellite compensated optics package with electric dog polisher can shell out the fifty grand for it and shoot against someone with a $20 tasco 2x plastic airgun scope, and both can be removed to shoot in an open sight class. Money does not buy skill, and I bet there will be plenty of old salts ready to challenge the wonder scope with their 50-year-old Leupolds. My money is on the old salts

Will this change increase total membership, decrease total membership, or make no shifts in membership either up or down?

I suppose it will be a draw. May have no effect.

Will this change increase the number of entries shot per year, and why?

I think that is probably more related to match conditions like how crowded, how smooth it runs, and to an extent, individual budgets. It can make it cheaper for some.


All in all, it seems to pass akihmsa's test well enough, but I'd like to hear from ak.

[Ekspurt]

There used to be a price cap on BB Prod. guns but it proved unworkable. It will be so in air soon enough as well.

As far as factory T/C/ bbls, I've always had good luck with them but you always have the option of using a T/C custom shop/Fox Ridge bbl if you want to.

[7br]

BR & akihmsa, OK whats your argument against allowing modified scopes in PAS, that modification includes aftermarket target knobs and flip up and tinted lens covers.

I am not a field pistol shooter and I really haven't studied the any sight rule.  My comments were directed at the use of aftermarket barrels on T/C contenders.

I really don't have an argument for or against the scope rule changes as I don't shoot Field pistol.  I understand both sides of the issue though.  IHMSA was started as an organization that simulated hunting situations.  We have strayed quite a bit from that mandate.  Looks like a push to me.

[ScottB]

Then I misunderstood your criteria somewhat.

On points 1 and 2, it would not prevent an obstacle for someone to shoot their scoped hunting pistol. I took your point to mean that it should remove possible obstructions/reservations from joining, and shouldn't cause an existing shooter any excuse to drop out, so I felt it was a pass.

I also assumed that a draw on a given test was akin to a pass, so I gave it credit on points 3 & 4.

I don't disagree wqith your logic, I just assumed your test was a little less stringent. My bad.

Still, a rules simplification with no obvious negative effects seems like a plus to me. Not a rule exception, not a technical change, but a major simplification.

I used to have to deal with the same thing organizing our car club's bracket races. Everyone wants a class that automatically disqualifies everyone else before they start. Give in to one, they all want consideration. I learned some hard lessons about the need to simplify things through that. I feel for you.

[Nerves Of Steel]

If folks feel strongly about allowing scopes to be taken apart and aftermarket bump kits, reticles etc. put in them for what they believe is a competitive advantage (why else would they do it?) then they need to be strong advocates for the change.  A good argument goes a long way towards having it happen!

Hello Kelly...Two points to make on your post. (1) (why else would they do it?) Answer because NRA has no restriction and I have two of them already. I didn't want to buy another scope just to shoot FP, but that was the end result. So where is the argument about "keeping the cost down" fit into this model??(2) then they need to be strong advocates for the change.  A good argument goes a long way towards having it happen! Answer I have submitted the rules change twice and the last time with 50 plus signatures from IHMSA members...result was no change..In my opinion, arguments don't change things, they polarize them and unfortunately bwith Wayne and me trying to get this changed, I think we have polarized the rules committee beyond change!!!

Nerves

[B_Koes]

I did smile a bit when you said the scopes were not altered for competitive advantage.  Somewhere along the line, whether in the NRA HP or before somebody thought altering the scope would get an extra target or two, otherwise they would not spend the money.

Kelly

Seems to me that you've confused "improvement" with competitive advantage.  It seems to me that competitive advantage applies when one shooter does something to his gun that the next person cannot do in order to gain target(s).

Extrapolating your comments over this thread I expect you'd like to see something like IROC come to IHMSA.  Everybody shooting identically prepared guns and loads.

[# 566]

" I personally don't care which way this goes as it is an event I don't shoot, and I feel it is not a big issue for us one way or another.   In other words a good argument will have a good chance of winning me one way or the other."


Kelly,
 Reguardless of how many voting members don't shoot in PAS, wouldn't you say that seeing over 50 signatures supporting the PAS rule change would be a good argument ?? OR didn't the voting members see the signatures ??

[ScottB]

Kelly,

I have to assume that some of the reason there aren't as many field pistol competitions is because that is one more set of targets for a club to purchase, maintain, and make room for on the range. Same thing with half scale, to an extent.