Taurus Tracker 45 colt - Loads Greater than sami Spec??

[philb]

I'm considering a lightweight mountain gun for hiking. Taurus will have a 4 inch 34 oz. Tracker in 44 Mag in July '04, but I really like 45 Colt.  I'd like to stick with this caliber in the double action and most of the time plink with cowboy loads. But for the trail, especialy if I get out west someday, I'm wondering if anybody has shot stouter loads from either the steel (34 oz) or the titanium (24) oz 45 Colt tracker. Taurus customer service tells me SAMI spec loads only, of course. I'm not looking for Ruger power but at 13,000 psi can only get 950 fps in a 250 gr HC  and  850 fps or so in a 300 grain, not shabby but not up to the 41 mag available in Ti and steel.

The steel tracker in 45 ACP has the same dimensions and weight in steel and same size cylinder holes with a SAMI spec of 18-19000 or 21000 psi for +P which is well short of the 28,000 psi loads shown for the Ruger 45 Colt, but promising if I can go to that modest level.  The frame is the same as their 41 Mag tracker so it should be OK for lower 45 Colt pressures I think.  If I go with Titanium I have much more strength than steel, though less stiffness.  I don't know if the extra strength is offset mechanically by light weight in terms of parts accelerating and banging into each other harder but the cylinder should easily handle the pressure.  Looking at the Hodgdon magazine of loads, some of the Ruger 45 Colt starting loads with H110 are in the 18000 - 20000 psi range, particularly 325 and 330 grain Cast Performance bullets at a little over 1100 fps. If I could achieve this, though short of the 1200+ fps Ruger loads, I would feel very well protected especially in either a lightweight 24 oz (Ti) or 34 oz (steel) "mountain gun".

Felt recoil is another issue but I can work on the balance between power and shootability over time, if I know that I am structurally and mechanically sound.  I know the chambers are short (max COL= 1.63) and I might have to stuff bullets 0.05 - 0.09 deeper if I want to use the ones that are currently at 1.68 in COL, such as the CP 300 gr., to fit, or else, trim brass if I want to crimp at the cannelure.   I contacted Hodgdon and they told me that for the same brass wall thickness, they said pressure should scale linearly with case volume.  Did some calcs and determined that pressure should only jump 2,000 -3,000 psi if I shorten by 1/10" or less.  Confirmed calculation approach with some 38 spec +P and 357 data in their load magazine with overlaping powder weights where measured pressures were published. 

I guess I could wait for the 44 Mag in July and never worry if I'm pushing it, or even try the 41 Mag tracker   Terry at CORBON tells me the 41 Steel Tracker will handle their stout 250 gr load.  I like 45 Colt and the idea of 300 grain bullets and have all of the dies and components.  I'm also told the recoil is less than 44 mag which seems significant in such a light gun.

Any thoughts or experience with the Trackers?  And how about the recoil in the 4 inch titanium version.  Are heavybullets jumping crimps? Are hands bleeding?  Will the load limitation be me or the gun. Any input or tested pet loads that would help me make a caliber decision would be much appreciated.  If it makes sense to go with steel I will, but the idea of a powerful 24 in. Mountain gun sure is intriging.

Thanks again,

 Phil  (new member - first post)

[DirtyHarry]

philb, Hello and Welcome to Graybeard Outdoors
I really cant speak on the Tracker series as I dont own one, but I am sure Graybeard will chime in on this one since he owns a Tracker in .45
I am not sure if he has worked on any handloads for this particular gun yet or not, you may wany to read over this http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=22367
Graybeard has had some trouble with this gun,not shooting related, but before he ever fired a shot.

[Graybeard]

I believe the weights you list on those guns are in error. It seems to be my 6.5" Model 460 only weights 20 oz. empty. I think you'll find both steel and Ti lighter than you list. My Ti feels like a feather really. It will be a super hip gun if it otherwise lives up to expectations. You can see my story on the first one I got in other threads in this forum. This replacement tho appears sound and I have high hopes for it.

As to pressure levels. The folks at Taurus told me that the Buffalo Bore loads that will fit in the FA97 are fine in the Ti. I assume steel also but didn't ask about it. I'm pretty sure that Tim loads those to full Ruger pressure levels but you might ask him. I know they are HOT and hurt my hand in the FA97 as much as full house .454 loads do in the larger heavier FA83.

Since I've not fired mine yet I can't speak to felt recoil but really that is a personal thing anyway. To me double actions are much easier to shoot than single actions. Some feel just the opposite. I know the Model 627 Ti with 4" barrel is even lighter than this one and with the heaviest loads I've run thru it felt recoil to me is lighter than most felt in my old S&W 19s and 686s.

My plans if needed call for trimming some brass back to allow proper crimp at the OAL that the cylinder will allow. I'll just have to experiment to see how it works and what is needed.

No I've had no bullets jump crimp in any of the Ti revolvers I've shot and I've used absolute MAX loads in them. Others might have different experiences but it hasn't happened for me.

I do caution you to not put your money on the line until you've examined the revolver in detail. Make darn sure it is OK before you accept it to the extent you can. Read of my experiences with the M44 and M460. Look for these problems and don't take it home if it has them.

GB

[Graybeard]

I did some playing around with the Taurus M460 Ti in .45 Colt this morning to see what is and isn't going to work.

Overall cylinder length is 1.575". You might NOTE: I said "might" be able to use a round with a COL of 1.6" but if you do you better not have any bullet jump or it will tie it up.

It takes the various CAS rounds with ease and reloads using most 250-255 grain. cast bullets. It will not accept reloads using jacketed bullets from Freedom Arms (FA260JFP) or Nosler or Hornady. All are too long when properly crimped in full length .45 Colt cases.

I do have some ammo loaded up using the Lyman 452651 bullet weighting right at 325 grains and when crimped in the forward crimp groove they fit fine so it is possible to find a heavy bullet that will fit should that be of interest.

I haven't yet cast up any bullets from my LBT 280 WFN mold but comparing the nose lenth on other bullets I have verified will work it seems this one is also going to fit BARELY in the cylinder in full length cases.

Based on what little checking I did today I'd say you're almost going to be limited to cast bullets and those will have to have a short nose section. I didn't have any of the Hornady 250 JHP on hand to try so am not sure about them. The 240 and 300 XTP Mags will not fit. Nose is too long it seems.

Looks like ammo for this one with other than normal 250-255 grain FN cast bullets is going to be very limited unless you want to trim cases for a proper fit.

GB

[philb]

Thanks for your responses to my questions.  At the handloads.com forum they led me to a discussion on this topic in their archieves:

http://www.handloads.net/forum/showthread.asp?topic=5&thread=1714

and currently reaponded:

http://www.handloads.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=1196&PN=2

They agreed that 21,000 psi, 45 ACP +P loads shoud be OK in the 45 colt tracker based on 45ACP chamber pressures and 41 mag frame loads in other trackers with the same external dimensions.   I've made a note to make sure, through Robert at Taurus,  that the 41 mag doesn't have special heat treatment not given to the lower pressure spec 45 ACP and 45 Colt Trackers.  If it doesn't,  these pressures may be fine even for heavy bullets.  

The Buffalo Bore offering that you heard that Taurus approved for the steel version, made for shorter the  FA revolver, is a 300 gr Speer JSP at 1200 fps COL=1.585 in.  Sounds like it will fit based on your measurements.  I will ask Tim what the pressure is there.   In the Speer manual it says if loaded to these velocities with 110 or 296 that you must seat to the rear cannelure to keep pressure at 25,000.  The COL I measured is  1.645 in.  To achieve the 1.585 length I suspect that the front cannelure is used raising the pressure further.  Perhaps Tim has a different, lower pressure powder but it is worth asking to be safe.  I don't feel comfortable trying to achieve those velocities in a jacketed bullet myself with 110 or 296 based on the Speer manual warning, even for the stronger Ruger.  I wonder if Taurus asked Tim about the pressure bfore saying that this load was OK?  

If this checks out, I would be thrilled if I could get even 1100 fps in the 4" Ti 45 Colt tracker with this round for very limited practice and trail carry.

Kindly let me know what loads you try and what results you get with heavy bullets, 250 - 300 grains and whether you have to trim cases.   Even if I have to settle for 1200 fps in a 255 grain CP Keith for a max trail load, I see no reason to feel I need the 41 mag, new dies, etc.  The Hodgdon Annual Loading Magazine gives hope for potent loads in the Ruger section under starting loads, at 45 ACP type pressures.

I want to be safe and appreciate your experience.  

Thanks,  philb

p.s. I first got mail form you 4-5 years ago when your hog hunting friend Kevin, from Texas, asked you about heavy 45 Colt Ruger loads on my behalf.  Your response led to the purchase of the Ruger I mentioned in the original post.  Thanks for the good advice, then and now.

[Graybeard]

I hope to be casting up some of the LBT 280s to try soon. Pretty sure they are going to fit OK in the short cylinder. I already know my big heavy Lyman 452651 will fit as I've dropped some in. Not sure tho the load in those is one I'd want to try in this revolver as they are put together for the Ruger Bisley. Need to double check the pressures in a loading manual on them.

Finding bullets with a nose short enough to work in this short cylinder is going to be a problem.


BTW when I spoke with the folks at Taurus it wasn't the steel frame gun but my personal Ti gun I asked about and was told the BB loads for FA97 were OK. Now whether that into was good or bad I guess I don't know. I suspect Tim Sundles of BB will know if you call and ask him. Tim is a really nice guy to talk with and has a good handle on what his loads will work in.

I'll post when I get to shooting this gun.

GB

[philb]

Bill,

Thanks for your reply.  I have some information for you.  I copied Tim from Buffalo Bore (BB) on my last post to you about the pressure in the FA 300 grain 45 Colt round at 1200 fps, that you heard was OK in the Tracker.  His reply to my email is repeated below.  I think he was being cautious as to what he put in writing.  I should have called him and may still do so.  Would still like to know the pressure.

"Phil

Taurus knows a lot more about their own revolvers than I do. I would follow
Taurus recommendations.

Personally I would not use our item 3D (the load you are describing) in my
Taurus, but if Taurus says it is OK, they should know.

Tim"

I then spoke to Robert at Taurus customer service this afternoon.  He had never heard of BB and went to their site for the first time as we spoke.  He had not recommended that round personally but wondered if a predacessor, no longer with them could have.  He is still checking what they have tested the gun with and will get back to me after a trip, on about March 18.  He also made contact with the engineers in Brazil and is going to ask about a pressure level for the gun.  He thought our logic about the 45 ACP pressures was sound but wants to talk to Brazil to get a positon.  I told him there is a lot of interset in going above cowboy loads in a modern gun of this caliber.  He should have an email back from Brazil by the 17th.  I will let you know what he says.  Do you remember who you spoke with at Taurus about the BB short round?  That might help robert.

As for bullets fitting,  I'm told the cast Performance (CP) 250 grain will fit without trimming.  CPs are used by Federal in their premium handgun hunting loads in 357, 41 and 44 mag.  The 45 Colt offering should be a good one.

Finally, I am passing on a thread where others, engaged in the endeavor of loading the 45 Colt somewere between cowboy and Ruger, shared their favorite loads.  I dont know if they were shot in trackers but they were going for the 45ACP pressure range of about 21,000.  You might find it interesting for comparison with your results.


http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1053&PN=3

I look forward to hearing how you make out in the 250 - 300 grain range.  Terry at Corbon told me recently that a 255 gr Keith bullet at about 1150 fps will pass through almost anythings that walks in North America.  I doubt that we need much more in a 24 oz. package.  Perhaps there is some experience out there?  I think we can get there, or at least close with this gun.

Be Safe

Phil

[philb]

Bill,

Not trying to be overwhelming but found load data from Paco Kelley, a respected gunwriter with pressure levels!  On the sixguner.com site archieves he is very prolific on big bore handguns.  Serendipitously, most of these pressures happen to be right at the 45 ACP levels we have been talking about!  Highly relevant for the Tracker 460.  This may take out some of the guesswork on pressures for these midlevel loads.  255 grain data looks great.  The 300 gr entry gives me pause.  Hodgdon annual magazine gives better velocities for the 300 gr. at lower pressures with 110 which is like 296.  

http://www.sixgunner.com/backissues/paco/45pressures.htm

Enjoy,

Phil

[Graybeard]

Most of Paco's loads are hotter than I have any plans for with this gun. His favorite using the Keith 255 is about where I generally load for my Bisley. That does seem a little slow for the 300 but is about where I am aiming with my loads for this really. I'm not sure if I want to use the heavier Lyman 452651 in this gun or not. It's not really in keeping with my plans for it for hunting or field carry use and would be for experimentation only if I do.

As I think I've said my real goal is to use a bullet in the 265-280 grain range moving in the 1000-1100 fps range. This is really all I am looking for from this gun. If my LBT 4 cavity 280 WFN fits which I'm pretty sure it will this is the one I'm hoping to find a good load with in this velocity range. It would be my primary hunting load and unless it seems too hard on the gun also a practice load. But I have a Lee 6 cavity mold that was a special order number of their standard 250-255 RNFP bullet with wider and deeper lube groove for use with black powder by CAS shooters. This one would be a good plinker as the 6 cavity mold should drop them really fast for higher volume shooting. It should be useful with Paco's favorite load data but again I feel no real need to push beyond the 1100 fps level.

I also have several other Lyman molds in the general 250-255 grain weight range I might try.

I located a box of Hornady 300 grain XTPs and did a bit of checking and I believe the XTPs will work OK in this one in full length cases. Makes me wonder what I had loaded in those cases that didn't fit. I know for sure the FA260FN will not fit, too long in the nose. I think the other may have been a Nosler HGPT that didn't fit. But honestly I doubt this gun will ever see a jacketed bullet anyway.

As to who I spoke with at Taurus I honestly would hate to say who specifically to attribute that comment to. I believe however it was Ron. I might have been Anthony tho. For sure one of those two. I've never asked Robert any technical questions of that nature only about matters concerning Customer Service since that is his job. Anthony is a tech type and Ron is the man who knows all there is to know about availability and technical specs on the guns. He is the man the others go to with questions it seems. My conversation was via phone and I'm not sure they would put in writing what I was told or even admit again they said it.    Such is the way in this litigious society.

GB

[unspellable]

I have much the same questions, but not for the Tracker.  I have a Raging Bull in 45 Colt.  How hot can I load it?  (It's a six holer.)
 
One of the problems with 45 Colt revolvers in general is that the chambers were originally oversized to accommodate black powder fouling and most modern revolvers still have the same oversized chambers.  This causes the brass to stretch quite a bit and leads to the misconception that 45 Colt brass is weak.  One of the tricks that allows high pressures in the 454 Casull is tight chambering.
 
I had hoped the 45 Colt RB might have the same chamber diameters as the 454, but no such luck, they are oversized like most 45 Colt revolvers.
 
I phoned Taurus, and at first they denied having ever made a RB in 45 Colt.  Eventually somebody remembered that they did make a few.  Of course I got the standard factory loads only answer.

[WBill]

I'am in the same boat as some of you, looking for a lightweight revolver in 45 Colt that will push a 255-280 gr. bullet around 1000-1100 fps. I have a Ruger Redhawk and Blackhawk in 45 Colt but both are just to heavy for me to carry all day and be comfortable.
 
Does anyone have a Taurus Tracker in 45 Colt with 4 inch barrel ? I have been reading a lot of post on different boards about it but no one has stated that they own one. I know that I can't find one anywhere close to where I live.  
 
Maybe someone will get one and work up some loads and post on this board.
 
Bill

[philb]

HI guys,

Got my new Model 460 Tracker 45 Colt in titanium.  Based on GB's input asked for a hand pick that had tight lock-up and light drag line and got it.  Here is message I just posted on handloads.com and am anxiuos to share here as well.

Timely resurgance of this thread.  Recall that I asked a lot of tehcnical questions about 4 inch Tracker last month.  I just got one this weekend, a Titanium 4 inch  Model 460.  The discussion here, and with Paco kelly and John Linebaugh and Graybeard on his forum, and my own stress anslysis (I'm am a structural engineer) , with conservatively low material properties since Taurus wont tell me anything,  maintaining the SAMI 40% safety factor between operating pressure and proof pressure ) convinced me that 45 ACP pressures are OK in this gun.  The cylinder walls at the back end are really thin.  Graybeard told me this and I now confirmed it.  They run 0.053-0.055 inches with the forcing cone only slightly thicker.  That led me to the Ti for some extra strength.  COL must be less than 1.60 due to cylinder length of 1.575 inches.

I went to the range with some data I felt was in the 21,000 psi range.  Some W296 data given by Paco Kelly on sixgunner .com and some from Acurate Arms web site for Rugers, which they conservatively hold to ACP levels, and some Blue Dot data from bullet manufacturer data bases.   Here is how I did at the range with the Cast Performance 265 gr WFNGC, looking for 1100 fps over my Chrony:


Blue Dot  15gr -   970, 1052, 1066, 1003 fps

AA No.7  15.3gr - 940, 977 fps
                15.7gr - 970, 920 fps (diminishing returns)

W296     22.7gr - 1075,1115 fps
                23.2gr - 1092, 1112, 1100 fps

Tried one 300 gr HNDY XTP:
W296      20.7gr - 1030 fps

Brass came out easily, nothing jumped crimp, and recoil though stout was fine.  Never wanted to reach for the shooting glove.   Shot my heavier  5 1/2 Ruger for comparison and it was of course more comfortable with these "warm" loads (and typicaly 70-80 fps faster than the ported 4 inch) .  The Taurus however, in my opinion, and Graybeard's,  was more comfortable than the Ruger with hot loads and much more so than in its 454 configuration (I had a 5 shot conversion done) even though so light (24.3 oz. advertised, Graybeard says less if you weigh it).   I guess the ribber grips and porting do a great job.  My impression at the loud  and visible blast  was not so much "Wow, was that snappy or unpleasant " but more "Wow, these cylinder walls are really this I hope this is OK"  Accuracy was outstanding with 5 shots off-hand at 25 feet fired in single-action mode, in 2/3  inch, with one ragged hole with the W296.  With light cowboy loads I will shoot most of the time, it was a real pleasure and also accurate.  

I'm still feeling my way.  Paco's Colt New Frontier data has my max 296 load at about 21,000  for a 255gr.  but the Hodgdon manual has the CP 260 (CP calls it 265, I weigh it 261-263gr) at more like 28,000 at 21 gr of H110 (W296 near equivalent)  This gave me pause but they also list the CP 325 gr at only 18,100 psi for the same 21 gr of 110.  Powder companies have told me it is safe to use the same powder charge on a lighter bullet.  I need to talk to them about this discrepency and probably send some out for testing or buy one of those strain gage arrangements to know pressures for sure.

If  I'm safe here what a sweet trail gun, super light, corosion proof,  and able to deliver 5 hardcast flat nose of 260-265 gr bullets at 1100 fps comfortablly and accurately.  HKS 44 Special 5 shot speedloader if you need more.  Bianchi light weight nylon molded holser.  Can it get much better than this?  I just hope the pressures are OK.  I guess if in the steel version 45 ACP Tracker (same cylinder length by the way) it can take 21-23,000 psi with SAMI 40% factor of safety on proof load, this one can too, especially in titanium.  Brian Pearce's response added to what you guys have been saying and the fact that the gentleman firing 45 super in the ACP steel version at 28-30000 psi has had no problems, bodes well.  He is still below yield stress but doesn't have all of the SAMI 40% safety factor that I am trying to maintain here if my analysis is correct.   If  Taurus uses one of the super titanium alloys  with proper heat treat, which it may well ,   we have even more margin.  So what do you guys think?  Am I doing this right?   MIght try 2400 and HS-6 and some more 255 and 300 grain LBT bullets made short for FA 97 model.  Would like to exploit Alliant Power Pistol but they have no such data.  Spoke with Western and they are currently testing Ramshot Enforcer at these pressure levels.  It performs so well on 45 ACP I can't wait to see their results for 45 Colt.   As I get more data I will share it.

Thanks,

Phil

[bigjeepman]

philb ....

Any more info to share on your 460 Tracker in .45 Colt? I am seriously considering this same model for a conceal/carry either in Ti or stainless steel.

I really like the .45 colt caliber and like you, being already set-up with dies, etc, this is what I want for my next handgun. Have you tried the Hornady HP/XTP in 250gr in your Taurus? I currently use this bullet along with a 250gr rn-fp in my Ruger Vaquero and Marlin rifle.