Puzzled by something????

[S.S.]

I watched a show on the history channel a few nights
ago. It was a competition between US, Canadian, and
British Military sniper teams. I really hate to say this,
but I was not impressed at all !!  The Brits I have to excuse
because they were not able to use ammo they were accustomed to.
The Canadians did Very well in certain matches, But I really would like to know who chose some of the American teams! Some Totally missed the target At 600 Meters!!!! Back in the late 70's early 80's Our teams
were easily knocking over Ten inch steel targets at that range!!!
And hitting targets a whole Lot farther than that in Beirut.
(White Turbans don't Give that "CLANK" noise when you hit them
But they are sure easy to spot !)
I really hope our guys were just having a bad day!

P.S. They all need to practice more with their handguns too!!!

[Mikey]

S. Sumner:  You're right, I don't know where they got some of those teams.  I tuned in late to that one but I did manage to get an eyeful of the squad machine gun competition a couple of nights before on the History channel.  As with you Friend, I was a bit dismayed.  Some of the targets were hit pretty well but I just had to wonder with some of them.  And I wondered about the machine guns - they bore some resemblance to the M-60 of my time but they sure weren't 7.62s, that I could tell.  

I also remember using the 1919A4s in 06 on our berms and how you had to hold them down, literally, or bipod them for grazing fire.  But I really came to like the M-60 even though a lot of guys didn't (I think they didn't know how to use them well).  Lots of guys mis-used them, like rambo and company and all that other nonsense, but they sure were rock solid guns and always worked just flippin' perfectly for me.   After a bit I got assigned as door gunner on a huey when we went in after downed pilots or whenever we were cruisin' out lookin' fer charlie.  It seemed that one M-60 wasn't enough, and one of the older Engineer Sgts felt the same and made up a double door mount for those guns.  You sat behind them the same way you stood behind the mini-guns, and man could you bring fire - whooooeeee and dang, you could smokem bad with two guns.  It was amazing.  Here, you'd be flyin' along nice and peaceful through those beautiful highlands and all of a sudden you'd see the green stuff arching up at ya - well, when your max effective range on individual targets is 800 meters (2400 feet), you got a major advantage over the bad guys on the ground and you could walk your stuff right in on them.

On my first combat tour I was an E-5 demo Sergeant under a pretty old A-Team Leader - he had been enlisted before being commissioned and had been an old Infantry Company Commander.  He knew the value of a good machine gunner and how to use those weapons for what they were designed for and let us know what he expected of us.  For us, continued practice at the 600- 1K mark (berm to woodline) was expected, and the application of 'grazing fire' proved too much for many of charlie's human wave assaults.  No Hollywood here, just a 1 in 4 tracer combo to direct fire and bring it to bear on the bad guy, and you knew (as did he) that the ones you couldn't see were the ones that were slicin' through his buddies - made for sonm very unnerved bad guys and a lot of, ummmm, 'short lived' masss attacks.  

OK, prattle, prattle, prattle.  Mikey.

[1911crazy]

The only competition I caught was were their guns were jammimg because of the high winds and sand the handguns and shotguns were jamming.                                                              BigBill

[Shorty]

Mikey,
Your M60 experience reminds me of an old friend.  He was a two-tour infantry Nam vet.  I once asked him if it wasn't the biggest guy in the squad who would have the M60.  He said, "S--t, no, I handled the M60, and loved it".  He also wasn't very big.  He said, "All you do is aim it at the ground and "walk" it up to the target".  Yeah, he was also crazy as a s--t house rat.  He told of catching a ride on a "bait-and-switch" huey operation, just for something to do.  I don't remember what the proper term was, but that's where a slick flies low to draw groundfire, while the gunship flies high to swoop in and blast the source.  Yeah, he also told of one of those Huey flights when the pilot wondered if he could break the canope if he put it into a steep enough dive.  He said that the canope was rippling like Hell, and it's a wonder that the rotors didn't come off, but he lived to tell of it. :roll:

[Jack Crevalle]

The only competition I caught was were their guns were jammimg because of the high winds and sand the handguns and shotguns were jamming.                                                              BigBill

Probably the POS Berrettas we were forced to switch to.

[Mikey]

Shorty, one of the most interesting aspects to the M-60 machine gun was the 'stock'.  Funny that the designers should put a stock on a machine gun if it wasn't intended for use.  I knew a buncha guys like your friend who would start low and let the gun climb but the problem was that you would send a lot of lead into aerial bombardment while charlie was running along the ground to get at you.  That rear stock in conjunction with the weight of the overall piece and the capability of the tripod just called for 'grazin' fire' and that M-60 excelled at that.

I forget exactly what the technical term was for the bait and switch tactic but we used that flying through the highlands where we would catch serious groundfire from VC gun emplacements - we used that technique that while the ship being fired on what 'running' from the groundfire, the trailing ship would pinpoint the source and make a run on it.  We used the tactic where the 'running' ship would circle back at a lower altitude than the trailing ship and 'double dust'em' with heavy gunfire.  Worked for us...  

Once, charlie had set up tree-house emplacements of their 51 calibers to catch our SOG teams as they either came in or went to leave.  They usually placed them 20-40 feet off the ground and if one was successful in chasing off a gunship you could usually find that charlie had placed a row of up to a dozen emplacements in the trees along any particular flight path.

One of our SOG teams went in and 'marked' these locations with smoke that they popped when we were making our runs.  It was too easy, and we cleaned out every 'tree rat' nest that got 'smoked up'.  The 51s didn't have a lot of distance to them and staying above their range was pretty easy.  We would just drop a couple of lines of tracer on them to start them up (responding) and the trailing ships would take them out one at a time.  It was a pretty effective technique, unless the SOG guys got bogged down and then we would extract them.  But it worked for us.  Mikey.

[MSP Ret]

. Thanks for all you and your buddies did Mikey, you guys were a god-sent help to many....<><.... :grin:

[S.S.]

Nothing really against them, but we would have gotten mud holes
stomped into our butts if we would have touched off a tracer round!
Because they also give enemy gunners a point of origin/Aim!
Our guys were real funny about thngs that made light in the darkness!
We almost had a "Intentional Friendly Fire" incident once because
someone at base decided to paint the pommel of Jims knife with
"Glow in the dark paint", Jim wore that knife on his back/right hip
and did not know it until we regrouped that he was lit up like a
christmas tree! Needless to say he was "VERY" pissed off!

[Mikey]

S. Sumner - that's how we could always tell where the Rangers were, by the glow in the dark strips on the backs of their hats (LOL)............ Mikey.

[kevin.303]

i saw a similar competition, maybe even the same one on a show about the canadian forces called truth ,duty,valour. it also was brit, us and canuck teams. during the pistol course one of the US teams(marines i think) the shooter had a beretta but his spotter was clearly using a 1911, looked like a SA or a kimber. could it be one of the 9MM versions, or can you carry a personal sidearm of a different caliber?

[Mikey]

kevin303:  If one of the team spotters was clearly carrying a 1911 I seriously doubt it was chambered for the 9mm.  The 9mm doesn't always function the full sized 1911 platform reliably.  It would most likely have been a 45.

Your last question about carrying a personal sidearm of a different caliber is a bit misplaced.  Some combat and/or coalition force members or units still issue or carry the 1911A1 - not all have issued the Beretta.  You may likely see the 1911 more frequently with the Reserve or National Guard units.  But, what you saw on that television show were special teams of soldiers, or teams of special soldiers who may well have had the benefit of a Marksmanship Unit instructor assist them.  Those were the individuals most likely carrying the 1911A1 as I believe the Marksmanship Units continue to use the 1911A1.  

It is not as though every different paltoon leader, Company Commander or Battalion/Brigade Commander can determine which sidearm he and his combat troops will carry.  All are regulated to issue firearms, unless or except when you get a specialty unit with its own separate table of organization and equipment.  The only Officers in the United States military forces who are authorized by their rank to carry whatever sidearm they choose are the General Officers.  Best examples are George Patton with a S&W 357 and an 1873 Colt 45, Henry Emerson with an 1873 Colt (that I personally fitted a factory 45 acp cylinder to) and a few others who's names managed to escape me within moments of our introductions (LOL).  Mikey.

[S.S.]

Some Special Ops personel can carry a variety of sidearms,
The smart ones still opt to carry a 1911/.45!
The only time I "GOT STUCK" carrying a 9mm was on
the streets as a Law enforcement officer. We had to carry
what was issued! We were allowed a back-up weapon though!
Mine was a National Match 1911!

[S.S.]

Hey Mickey

I thought it was that little chain that held the lid to
their canteens that gave them away!  :eek:

[Mikey]

S. Sumner - that too.  LOL.  Mikey.