Author Topic: High? Velocity Encore Accuracy (Read 936 times)

Vapour · « **on:** April 07, 2004, 05:13:36 AM »

Hi all, I've been lurking these boards for a while gathering data on which muzzleloader/bullet/powder seem to work the best. Recently, I purchased an Encore 209X50--I would have bought a Savage, but Michigan doesn't seem to like them for muzzleloader season. I've been shooting 220 grain 40/50 dead centers and 250 grain SST's on top of FFFG triple seven. So here's my problem:

As long as I use 90 grains of powder or less the gun shoots around .75 MOA. The best group being 0.5 inches at 100 yards using 220 grain DC's. The 250 grain SST's group similarly. As soon as I use move up to 95 grains of FFFG the groups open up to 4-5 inches and remain that same size up to 120 grains of powder.

Things I've tried:
FFFG and FFG powder--I can add around an extra 5 grains of FFG before the group opens up.
Different bullets--220 grain DC's, 250 grain QT's, and 250 grain SST's.
Sub-bases--tried loading 28 gauge sub-bases below the sabot--no change.
(Semi) Free-floating barrel--used a total of 4 nylon washers to get the barrel away from the fore-end--no change (although I could slip a dollar bill in between the barrel and fore-end, it was still a bit tight).

I think that the opening up of the groups is a function of velocity. Otherwise I can't understand how I have a 1 MOA gun that changes to a 5 MOA gun with a 10 grain powder increase. Does anyone have any ideas on getting slightly more accuracy out of this type of rifle at higher charges?

My next project will probably be to sand away a small portion of the fore-end to free up the barrel channel a bit more. Either that or call TC and send the barrel back.

Oh, and my scope is at the extreme upper end of its vertical travel, but I know that's a barrel tapering problem. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for the help.

Edit: Used 28 gauge sub-bases instead of .410

grouse · « **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2004, 05:44:26 AM »

I really don't think you have a problem. Alot of guys would love to be able
to shoot the groups you are with 90grns of powder. I would shoot what the
gun likes best. Accuracy would be more important to me. With the 220grn
DeadCenter, Deer size game out to 175yds is Dead.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2004, 05:50:06 AM »

Quote

As long as I use 90 grains of powder or less the gun shoots around .75 MOA. The best group being 0.5 inches at 100 yards using 220 grain DC's. The 250 grain SST's group similarly.

I hate to be the one to say it, but that naturally won't slow me down! :eek:

You are already there, and have a wonderfully shooting gun. A 5 gr. diff in T7 turned my Encore from .750" to 4" groups. If you chrono that load, you'll likely find you have a one-hole gun fully capable of point blank, no holdover hunting to 190 yards or so. :shock:

Congratulations.

Vapour · « **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2004, 06:19:49 AM »

I know, I probably shouldn't complain, but I can't help tweaking. I've only been able to shoot at a public range so far (no chronographs), but hopefully I'll be able to break out the chrongraph in a few weeks. I'm guessing that as I pass 1850 fps the groups open up, but I can't say that for sure yet.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2004, 06:43:36 AM »

You mentioned 95 gr. T 7 FFG as still retaining accuracy with the 220 gr. Dead Centers-- you should be in the 1940 fps + arena already!

AndyHass · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2004, 07:33:17 AM »

Randy, is 1940 fps with 220 DC and 95 grains FFg a common value? :shock: I needed a 195gr DC and 100 gr FFg 777 to get 1950 (n=1 for guns tested).
Vapour's got a good gun, I tried to convince him to buy an Omega instead so I could try one before buying. :wink: Is there any solution for the problem the barrel taper causes for the scope mount on his Encore?

contendernut · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2004, 07:46:29 AM »

Quote from: AndyHass

Is there any solution for the problem the barrel taper causes for the scope mount on his Encore?

You can use the Burris signature zee rings and the offset inserts. Another option is to put a shim under one end of the base.

Vapour · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2004, 07:46:31 AM »

Andy, the solution to the scope mount problem is to buy the burris signature rings and inserts--I'm just too cheap to do it.

At least you got Casey to buy an omega :grin:

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2004, 09:43:22 AM »

Quote

Randy, is 1940 fps with 220 DC and 95 grains FFg a common value? :shock: I needed a 195gr DC and 100 gr FFg 777 to get 1950 (n=1 for guns tested).

There are all inaccurate-- you really need to chrono your own loads. However, it is a close (admittedly incorrect) guess. The 195 duplex is heavier than you might think-- that second sabot weighs 15 grs. or so.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2004, 10:24:41 AM »

Quote

Is there any solution for the problem the barrel taper causes for the scope mount on his Encore?

What "problem"?

Vapour · « **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2004, 10:40:46 AM »

The sight base (leupold quick-release non-weaver type, I forget the exact name) is not flush with the barrel for its entire length. This leads to a slight gap between the barrel and the front of the sight base. To compensate, I've had to crank the vertical adjustment on my weaver grand slam to near the top of its adjustment range (I have about 30 1/4 MOA clicks left in the "up" direction). From what I've read in the Encore Rifle forum here and elsewhere this seems to be a common problem with encores--especially the 209X50's. The solution is to use the Burris Signature Zee rings with offset inserts to compensate for the tapering problem.

It could be worse, there are guys in the other forum complaining that they've already used all of the vertical adjustment and the gun is still shooting low at 100 yards.

Underclocked · « **Reply #11 on:** April 07, 2004, 01:03:03 PM »

If you are on target with your scope and still have adjustment left then what you see is more in the normal range for scope bases on the Encore. Wanna see a gap on the front?....try a Weaver base. That gap is not a real problem in and of itself - it just looks bad. The guys that have had a serious problem are the ones that have either had to resort to the offset rings or , in some cases, send the barrel back to T/C.

I would be glad for that barrel were I you. You got a good 'un!

toytruck · « **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2004, 03:45:59 PM »

I have a .45 Encore and had the same vertical problem with my 3X9X40mm Leupold VXII. I was maxed out at 25 yds. shooting 460 No Excuses conicals that grouped 1/2-1/4" but were 1" low. I have the scope mounted on a TC scope rail with Warne Maxima QR rings.

I emailed Leupold and they told me that I had a common problem. Funny this didn't happen with my former Tasco Silverantler scope!

Anyway I took the rifle to my local dealer/gunsmith and for $15 he took off the scope and rail and built it up with Epoxy. Now its solid as a rock and he bore sighted the scope and said I would have at least several more inches of vertical adjustment. This solved two problems as now I don't have to worry about any fouling getting under the scope rail and the Epoxy won't come off without using heat to melt it off. I haven't been back to the range to try it out yet. :grin:

If you still have room for vertical adjustment at 100yds. I wouldn't worry, but if you run out of clicks, this hopefully is the solution. :wink:

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #13 on:** April 07, 2004, 06:03:51 PM »

One factor, apparently seldom considered in the purchase of a scope is the amount of adjustment available. A Sightron SII 3 x 9 x 42 has 95 inches @ 100 yards, the 2.5 x 10 x 32 SII an amazing 120 inches.

toytruck · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2004, 09:21:38 AM »

Yeah, just my luck. If I didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any luck. Live and learn I guess, and like I said I haven't run into this before. :roll: