Author Topic: High Gas Prices: The Beginning of The End  (Read 2740 times)

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Offline parkinsonsd

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High Gas Prices: The Beginning of The End
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2004, 08:22:14 AM »
I had to spend my paycheck last week driving all over the dern state.  Interestingly enough, I figure that with the increase in the price of oil, I've ended up paying out way more than whatever tax refund I got to the oil companies, and am no better off.  I ain't spending all that much on anything right now cause the gas prices are killing me.

Unfortunately, the cost of oil is an expense in almost every sector of the market, be it production, transportation, or heating, and as the cost rises, the profits go down.  Just makes it that much tougher, I guess.
um, er, yeah.  okay.

Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2004, 08:35:28 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
I have a question.  If we REALLY gave these countries "back,"  then why do we still have military bases in most, if not all, of them?  From one perspective, yes, we gave them back, but from another, how much do we really continue to control/influence THEIR foreign policy down the road?  Something to think about huh?  If there were Philipine or British bases scattered all around the United States, some of you guys would be the first to say that we are an "occupied" country.  You'd probably start grinding your teeth at the sight of Korean war planes launching daily from some air base 5 miles down the road from your farm, OR to make things more palatable for yourself, you could buy into the necessary propaganda endlessly reminding you how our "friends" are here to ensure the safety of the world?


Now, BamBams, or should I say Road Warrior   :)  :) , do you derive this opinion from the fact that there are American military governors still in place in these countries? There are not.

You must know that we lease these bases from the host countries, and, for the most part, they're glad to have them - and the revenue they generate. They may not love us, but they simply adore our money.

By the way, if we "control" their policies, how come they are so outspoken against us. We've got bases on German soil, but we sure haven't controlled or influenced that country a heck of a lot. For all the troops and money we have poured into NATO, you'd think we would have gotten more cooperation from two of our so-called "allies" if we had so much influence on their foreign policies. This "influence" sure didn't stop France from selling banned weapons to Saddam, did it?

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Now, before you jump all over me, let me state that I DO believe it was a good idea to invade both Afganistan and Iraq. I support Bush 100% in those two wars, but I still believe that oil is a huge factor in this equation. And saying this, doesn't in any way, diminish the huge sacrifices we have made as a country to ensure our freedom, power, and way of life here. If I could have gone to either of these wars, I'd have been one of the first to volunteer, BUT when Iran gets invaded next for having WMD will you then believe me?  When Saudi Arabia gets handcuffed by us for harboring terrorists, will you then believe me?  When we finally assume total control, behind the scenes of course, of ALL middle east oil will you THEN believe me?  I am not yet convinced that we have really given anyone "everything" back.


Really? And where is this huge flow of oil into the US that you allege we fought for? Isn't it interesting that we turned the Kuwaiti oilfields back to the Kuwaitis after the Gulf War. And, we're financing the recovery effort in Iraq without any demands on her oil. I mean, we do control the entire country. Why is there no call for American oilfield workers to go over there to harvest the spoils of war.

As for warring on other countries that threaten us, your problem with that is?

Had certain recent administrations "taken care of business," we would not find ourselves with our backs against the wall today. Terrorists lost their fear of us because we sent out the message to the world that we were vulnerable. We could have had Osama bin Laden's head on a platter years before he plotted and financed 9/11, but Slick Willie was too busy dipping his wick and trying to cover up his actions to take advantage of the offers made by the Sudanese. Bush Sr. allowed Saddam to stay in power and brag to his people that he had won the Gulf War. We've hamstrung Israel in her efforts to defend herself against her hostile neighbors. They start wars, and, when the Israelis kick butt, we tell them they've got to agree to "cease-fires" instead of allowing them to solve the problems once and for all. And, we have the gall to demand that they return captured territory to their enemies.

Do you think that terrorist leaders are unaware of our softness? Do you think that they had any reason to fear our "big stick" and our willingness to wield it? Of course not. Now we've got to make up for lost time. You know, there was a time when folks were afraid to give this country any grief. To attack us in any way meant repercussions that they didn't want to have to face. Even though we were ostensibly following a hands off policy with regard to the 2nd World War, for example, Yamamoto warned his government that to attack us was akin to waking a sleeping giant. He was right. Now, all to many people, both abroad and at home, want to administer anaesthesia to our national will - to put us back to sleep. But, the alarm clock has gone off, and, thanks to our current leadership, we're wide awake.

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The imminent oil shortage is going to totally wreak havoc on this earth, for nearly everything around you is produced or acquired from petroleum....even the computer you are using right now wouldn't be here if it were not for plastics.  There is now way that we can switch everything over to other resources BEFORE we run out of oil, so start preparing yourselves and your families now.....this is REAL, and if one wants to be okay 20 years from now, that person should wake up and start thinking of how he is going to survive.  When we think about "oil" we instantly think about transportation, but there are gazillions of products and services that are 100% reliant upon petroleum.  When a barrel of oil becomes so high priced that you can only fill up your tank once a month - if you're lucky, you will see that cost reflected in EVERYTHING else as well.


As to any oil shortage, I am not convinced that it is as critical as you seem to think. It is the liberals, the same ones who want to destroy our national will and put us back to sleep so that their friends, and our enemies, can walk all over us again, who are doing their best to block our harvesting resources that are under our very feet at ANWR. If we have enemies without, we certainly have enemies within among the "hate America first" crowd and their capitol on the Left Coast. They'd like to keep us dependent on foreign sources, perhaps to bring our economy to a standstill. They are opposed to every plan proposed by the President to provide for our energy needs. Is it any surprise that a work of fiction by that horses patoot, Michael Moore, won an Academy Award as a "documentary?"

I agree that a great deal of our manufactured goods derive from petroleum, and that is why we have to do everything we can to find and exploit new sources of oil as well as discover new ways to generate energy without the use of fossil fuels. And, we have to utilize alternate means of energy production that we already have the technology to make use of, like nuclear power plants. But, even the suggestion of building such plants brings the lefties out of the woodwork like termites. What do you suppose is at the root of California's energy crunch?

 
Perhaps we ought to start sucking the oil out of the Middle East to pay for our expenses that have resulted from the war that has been forced upon us by the oil rich supporters of world terrorism. Then we can see to it that some of the money made from that oil gets back to the people of those countries. Right now vast oil revenues of these countries goes into providing more and more extravagant lifestyles for leaders who oppress their peoples and poison their minds against us, claiming that it is the "Great Satan" that is responsible for their woes. The hatred on the "Arab Street" for America is based on the Big Lies they are told by their "leaders." These same "leaders" make sure to keep them poor and illiterate to feed their fanatical hatred and deny them the means of finding out the truth.

There's no question in my mind that the peoples of the Middle Eastern Islamic countries would be far better off if we threw out all their current governments and did some "nation building" along the principles that have made this country the greatest and freest in the world. Given a taste of republican government, the people of the region wouldn't ever want to go back to the way things are now.

P.S.  :D Although we may disagree on some things, mi amigo, I still think you're a fine fellow - thoughtfully arguing your point without reference to such irrelevancies as implying cocaine use by our President in his youth, an allegation made by his liberal enemies that was never substantiated in any way.
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Offline Major

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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2004, 09:41:07 AM »
Quote from: Fla Brian
Major,

I also agree most heartily with what you've said with one small correction. It may have been a Demoncrap who got us into Korea, but, to be honest, it was a Republican, I'm sad to say, who "negotiated us out of there - Dwight Eisenhower.

The debacle over Korea, I am convinced, was the precursor to, and set the stage for, the disaster of Viet Nam. The same polititically-run-from-Washington "limited war" and no-win policies were involved both times. Were it not for these incredibly stupid political decisions we would have won in both those conflicts. We would not be having the trouble that we are experiencing today with North Korea - because there would be no North Korea. And Viet Nam would have been unified alright, but not under the North Viet Namese Communists.

As for what NYH said about Bush Sr. "not taking care of business," that's about the only thing he said that I agree with. He, apparently, was so afraid of losing his "coalition" that he broke off from a war that we were winning. Sound familiar? As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


Thank you Fla Brian for such good answers to the questions others raised.   As to what I just quoted from you, please let me add one little over looked fact.   Both Eisenhower and Bush Sr. were dealing with the UN and we know just how useful that outfit is don’t we?   I don’t think I need say any more do I?  
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Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2004, 09:44:21 AM »
Quote from: Major
Quote from: Fla Brian
Major,

I also agree most heartily with what you've said with one small correction. It may have been a Demoncrap who got us into Korea, but, to be honest, it was a Republican, I'm sad to say, who "negotiated us out of there - Dwight Eisenhower.

The debacle over Korea, I am convinced, was the precursor to, and set the stage for, the disaster of Viet Nam. The same polititically-run-from-Washington "limited war" and no-win policies were involved both times. Were it not for these incredibly stupid political decisions we would have won in both those conflicts. We would not be having the trouble that we are experiencing today with North Korea - because there would be no North Korea. And Viet Nam would have been unified alright, but not under the North Viet Namese Communists.

As for what NYH said about Bush Sr. "not taking care of business," that's about the only thing he said that I agree with. He, apparently, was so afraid of losing his "coalition" that he broke off from a war that we were winning. Sound familiar? As George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


Thank you Fla Brian for such good answers to the questions others raised.   As to what I just quoted from you, please let me add one little over looked fact.   Both Eisenhower and Bush Sr. were dealing with the UN and we know just how useful that outfit is don’t we?   I don’t think I need say any more do I?  



Not hardly!
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2004, 01:40:46 PM »
Now, BamBams, or should I say Road Warrior   :)  :) , do you derive this opinion from the fact that there are American military governors still in place in these countries? There are not.

Of course not, but have you ever heard of "puppet leadership"?  

You must know that we lease these bases from the host countries, and, for the most part, they're glad to have them - and the revenue they generate. They may not love us, but they simply adore our money.

I see that, BUT we are still in those countries why?  To protect them?  If we really ARE there to protect them, then it would only make sense that they NEED us so badly to allow us to stay there.  After all, they don't "adore" us right? AND if they need us THAT badly, then it only stands to reason we have an awful lot of political influence there.  After all, we could always pull and let the dogs eat them out if they refused to assist us.
 
 This "influence" sure didn't stop France from selling banned weapons to Saddam, did it?

We don't occupy France......yet.   They don't want to play that way.  Are you aware of any US Bases currently operating in France?

Really? And where is this huge flow of oil into the US that you allege we fought for?

It's sitting in Iraq waiting for us.  We've got to install a government there to give it to us out of gratitude for liberating them -- otherwise we would simply be plundering it.  That would look REALLY bad.

 Isn't it interesting that we turned the Kuwaiti oilfields back to the Kuwaitis after the Gulf War. And, we're financing the recovery effort in Iraq without any demands on her oil. I mean, we do control the entire country. Why is there no call for American oilfield workers to go over there to harvest the spoils of war.

Trust me, you can add ALL that oil to US reserves - we just aren't quite at the point where we are ready to start pumping it over here yet.

As for warring on other countries that threaten us, your problem with that is?

Where did you come up with this?  I enjoy killing bad guys.  Why just the other day, I had to correct a customer when he assumed I'd be sad if I took the life of a burglar at the gun shop. I never said I had a problem with warring on other countries. I hope we take over the whole world.  If there is a piece of bread left, I think it should be an American that gets to eat it.  After all, we've practically saved the world a couple times already.  Everybody owes us.  We're better at controlling business than the mafia!

Lastly. as you can cleary see, I am hard-headed, so I'll wait another few years to decide if my theories are right or wrong.
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Offline Major

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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2004, 05:38:19 PM »
BamBams,

Did you know that the US uses only the Arab oil that the Saudi’s pump?   Almost all the rest of the Arab oil goes to Europe and Asia.   If I remember right Japan is one of the biggest users of Arab oil.   Some of Europe gets their oil from the North Sea too.   That is why there were so many countries against us or at the very least not with us when we went into Iraq.   And that is why the US was so worried about what the Saudi’s were going to do when we went in this time.

The biggest reserves in the world are in some of the Ex. Soviet Union Republics like Uzbekistan for one.   Russia has part of that reserve too along with several other countries like Kazakhstan.   There is thought to be enough oil there to almost equal all of the oil that has been pumped so far in the world.   We will not run out in our grandchildren’s lifetime, it will just cost a lot more.   The trouble is there is no way to get the oil out to seaports without cooperation for pipelines from countries like China.   Just why do you think we do so much business with them?   It is for their cooperation for putting in pipelines to get to the oil out is a big reason.  

It is also expensive to get the oil out of the ground in those Ex. Soviet Union Republics because so much of it needs to be used just to warm the extraction equipment in those bitter cold climates.   Why to you think Alaska oil costs more than Arab oil?   It’s the extraction costs.   We wouldn’t use our northern oilfields at all if the world was a more stable place and we could be assured of a constant flow of oil.  Yes, the US does go after other countries oil but we do it with business ventures and diplomacy not our Army.

Also, getting back to those bases we have around the world.   The bases are there because we were asked for our help after major conflicts like WWII.   We are there not to control those countries but to have our forces deployed is places where trouble might break out so we can stop it BEFORE it gets to OUR own soil.   If we have to fight wars do you want the battle ground somewhere else or here in our country?   I mean think about it.   Do you want your house blown up or shot up as our army tries to turn back an enemy?   If someone is going to loose their home I want it to be some other poor guy and then I will try to help him rebuild.   Isn’t that a much preferred way to go?

I can’t believe so many people have bought into the oil lies.   I also have trouble with the democrats saying they are against “Big Business” and “for the working man” when, if Kerry makes it into office he will be the third richest president we have ever had.   That doesn’t sound like being against “Big Business” and for “workers” to me.   Once again we see a stunning example of how money talks.   If Kerry really wanted to help this country of ours out he would drop the price of the foodstuffs he sells us.   Ever heard of “Heinz” foods?   That is Kerry’s money and he wants his billion’s that he makes off of us little working class guys.   They cry “oil” so we won’t notice when they pick our pockets in so many other areas.

What I am saying is back up a bit and look at the whole big picture.   Become part of the solution not just another sheep.   God gave us all a head with a brain in it.   We need to start using it instead of just believing all the political babble.   Why would all the rest of the world sit back and let the US go after everyone’s oil when they need it too.   Why would they?
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Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2004, 06:15:41 PM »
BamBams,

Just a couple of points.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there NATO installations in France with US military personnel stationed there. We also have troops stationed in Germany. As a matter of fact, we had occupied Germany, but, as is usual with this country, we relinquished control back to German government authority in the sector controlled by us.

Obviously our "influence" has not had much of an impact on those countries.

Secondly, do you have inside information as to the "puppet" status of foreign governments - with our country pulling the strings? I consider myself to be relatively well informed, but this has escaped my notice. And, given the way those countries vote in the UN, I find it highly unlikely that they're our "puppets."

I would also be interested in your sources to support your claims as to the impending transfer of Kuwaiti and Iraqi oil to the United States. Of course, it is also possible that the governments of both or either country might be willing to sell us oil. I just don't believe that they're going to simply turn it over to us. And, given the length of time that has passed since the Gulf War, one would think, if you were correct in your assessment, that the Kuwaiti oil would already be in US tanks. What do you suppose is taking so long? When do you suppose the time will be ripe to start pumping it over here?
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Offline Major

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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2004, 07:22:59 PM »
BamBams,

Another thing to think about.   If we control those countries like Germany then why would we allow them to join Airbus Industries and take away over half of Boeing’s Commercial Airplane sales?   Boeing was the largest importer of foreign money in this country.   They did more to help the United States balance our payments abroad than any other company in the US.   For that matter, if our government has plans for world conquest then why would they let Boeing move so many jobs overseas to Russia and Spain and India?   Why wouldn’t we keep our number one cash cow here to help pay for that world conquest?   And believe me, I know what I am talking about here.   I worked for Boeing for 34 years and was forced into an early retirement because of the off-loading of work abroad.   I was lucky to be able to retire.   30,000 other guys and gals couldn’t and were laid off.
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2004, 07:25:36 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there NATO installations in France with US military personnel stationed there.

Sure there are, but nothing along the lines of what we have in some other countries.  It's similar to the Canadians we have stationed here at NORAD. A few here and there, but not a significant military presence at all.  A nation can only barter with what it has. Where our presence is powerful and NEEDED the most, that is where we have the most influence. It's very simple.  When the need for oil becomes greater, what we cannot barter for, we will take by force.  It will never be "popular" for any politician to say, "Hey folks, we are really gonna need this oil, so we are going to invade so and so.  There will have to be some way to win over the public support of any invasion.  You see how un-nerved YOU become at the mere suggestion of us controlling another country for oil? As a politician who wants to ensure an oil supply for his country, what am I to do with you Brian?

I think I should also remind you that I do not believe oil is the only reason we invaded Iraq, but I do believe it was one of the main reasons. I believe 911 alone gave us a valid reason to invade and squash Saddam, but I suspect that we were looking for valid reason as well - and we got one.  I hope we got Osama too! If not, I hope I find him in a dark alley someplace, anyway, I'm regressing.

Obviously our "influence" has not had much of an impact on those countries.

Obviously we excercise the control and influence where we DO have it, and where we don't, it's because we can't yet.

Secondly, do you have inside information as to the "puppet" status of foreign governments - with our country pulling the strings?

I don't think "insider information" is needed to see it.  To my eyes, it's as plain as day.

 I consider myself to be relatively well informed, but this has escaped my notice. And, given the way those countries vote in the UN, I find it highly unlikely that they're our "puppets."

I am sure you ARE well informed, but evidently (no offense intended), geology and earth sciences were not your strong point in college. Heck, when I was in college the scientists and analysts were predicting we only had enough fossil fuel left for the next 40, or so years, and ALL the data is there to substantiate this if anyone would take the time to study it.  In fact, even the latest data on oil consumption supports what I was shown in college many years ago.....going by that older information, we are very close today to where those people said we would be.

I would also be interested in your sources to support your claims as to the impending transfer of Kuwaiti and Iraqi oil to the United States.

As I said earlier, it's my theory, and evidently I am not alone.  As time moves on, and we get closer to running out of oil, my theory will be proven or disproven.  There is NO OTHER WAY to substantiate it -- we'll just have to wait and see won't we?

Of course, it is also possible that the governments of both or either country might be willing to sell us oil. I just don't believe that they're going to simply turn it over to us. And, given the length of time that has passed since the Gulf War, one would think, if you were correct in your assessment, that the Kuwaiti oil would already be in US tanks. What do you suppose is taking so long? When do you suppose the time will be ripe to start pumping it over here?

FlaBrian, not everything happens over night.  Why is it taking so long?  Simple, we have been able to sustain our economy and industry this long. It's like a chess game.  You have to think way ahead, have a strategy that works, and make the moves in the correct sequence.  Things are just now beginning to take a form that reveals this larger strategy.  Oil is the life blood of this industrial era, and that blood is running thinner each day.  Soon it will be more precious than gold, and we'll pay more dearly to acquire it.  When it runs out, you better hope for a miracle because current innovation and technology cannot outpace the rate at which oil will be consumed over the next two decades.  Not only is oil being used up, but an oil dependent world population and industry continue to grow exponentially. Do the math.

If a person does not believe science, and doesn't understand power and control, then I fear they wind up living in a ficticious bubble.  This is NOT a political issue, although lots of folks will try and make it into one. It is a very real, very substantiated, imminent energy shortage.  It WILL happen!

You want sources? What kind do you want?  What do you consider a valid source?  I gave you some darn good ones in my first couple of posts to get you started.  If you trust the Bush administration, start reading about what his former energy advisors think about all this.  If that doesn't float yer boat, then start reading freshman geology text books. If you still can't see it, then you've closed your mind because there are enough FACTS and DATA on this to keep you busy for a long long time.  I can appreciate your being moralistic and trying to defend what you believe are our sole reasons for having a presence in the middle east.  I admire and respect your tenacity, but if you cut your lawn too short and kill the grass, you can't blame liberals or conservative.  We are like any other life form that exhausts it's resources.  Our lifestyle will die off until we reach a population that the resources CAN support.
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Offline Gunsmoke

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« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2004, 07:47:53 PM »
Just a couple of more thoughts on the subject from the prior comments. The oil in the Middle East was was developed by companies from the good old USA, with our technology, expertise, equipment, know how, and money. I believe it happened mainly in the 40's and 50's, we were really welcome at that time, then all of the countries "nationalized" the oil fields when we got them up and running. They used us to get what they wanted and then basically kicked us out.
Seems to me that's the way a lot of them operate.

Eisenhower evidently put the Korean treaty together, but I think Harry Truman is the Father of the "no win" policy as he was the one that limited the military action in Korea by not allowing military action above the 38th parallel. The great Gen. Douglas McArthur was fired by Truman because he still held the WW2 attitude that" Their is no sbstitute for victory". He insisted on pursuing the bad guys and defeat them but Truman saw to it that it didn't happen. I think that's exactly when the no win policy of the Democrats was put in place.

I know we all have our own opinions, and we can disagree without being disagreeable, I appreciate that about you guys.
Even tho I agree with the Major and Fla Brian, the others make some good points, but I really do not believe it is about the oil.
GW is not perfect, but my opinion is that he stands head and shoulders above the Kerry or any of the other liberal Democrats on the scene today, I think he is a Godsend for our nation.
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Offline Major

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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2004, 08:00:13 PM »
Yes Gunsmoke, it is nice to agree to disagree and be gentlemen about it.

One thing I pointed out earlier but maybe you missed it.  Eisenhower evidently put the Korean treaty together but it was through the United Nations and we all know how ineffectual the UN is.

And BamBams, if I said anything to you that offended you I apologize.   We are all entitled to our own opinions, right or wrong.
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2004, 08:04:06 PM »
Hey Major, I'm not offended by anything in this thread. I appreciate the opportunity to explain my views, and I'm sure everyone else does also. Viva la 1st Amendment!  This is one of those things were I'd LOVE to be 100% wrong, but the more I think about it, the more I see it MY way! hehehe.

As far as I'm concerned, you guys are all top notch.  It would be really boring around here if we always agreed on everything.  Someone has to start trouble, so I guess it's my turn this time.  *smiles*
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Offline Gunsmoke

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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2004, 08:32:31 PM »
The earth science people also have wide spread opinions about the world oil reserves. Some think we have reached the break over point and that there is no place on earth that has the capability to produce what will be required to sustain us in the near future. I have spoken with several geologist though, that have the same thought that the Major mentioned, that both Russia and China have enough reserves to sustain us for many generations. This takes a lot of time and money to accomplish, and I believe when the need arises and the revenues justify it, it will happen. It will be up to the companies of the "good ole USA to get it done.
Until recently the price of oil has been so low and unstable that companies aren't willing to take the risk to spend the millions and even billions of $ that it will take to get the job done. It costs millions to drill some wells and most are dry holes, in the USA, only about 30% are commercially productive.
I don't like paying higher prices anymore than anyone else, but falsely low prices of energy is one reason we are in the shape we are in today. There just hasn't been enough financial incentive for a major exploration program in the world.
The price of oil has not come close to keeping up with the price increases of most other major items we purchase on todays market.
Hope I'm not wrong,  I'm the eternal optimist . But I also trust that the Gentleman  that created this whole universe, including the oil,  is going to meet our needs when we depend on him to do so. Just my opinion. Thanks for listening.
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Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2004, 10:37:04 AM »
BamBams,

We'll have to agree to disagree like the gentlemen we are. I respect your opinion, and I hope you respect mine.

There is one thing that you are way off base with regarding my attitude, but I can see where you might get that impression.

"You see how un-nerved YOU become at the mere suggestion of us controlling another country for oil?"

While it is still my belief that the war on terror that we are engaged in is not about acquiring oil, in point of fact, nothing would please me more than to go in and take over the oil fields from the present owners. One of the gripes I have with our government, as I believe I referred to is its putting the brakes on the Israelis when it looks like they are going to achieve complete victory in the wars started by the Arabs. If the Israelis had control of the oil we wouldn't be going through what we're being forced to do now.

I have been likewise outraged by the British stabbing of the Israelis in the back to favor the Arab oil states when the British hegemony in the area was ended by the UN and an independent Israeli state was declared. If you will recall, the Brits had promised statehood to the Jews in Palestine on more than one occasion. The last time the promise was made it was in order to recruit Jewish fighters to combat the Nazis.

When the war ended, in response to pressure from the Arabs (who had sided with the Germans in the war) the Brits turned their backs on their former allies and imposed a blockade to prevent the European survivors of Hitler's holocaust from getting to Palestine. They created concentration camps of their own on Cyprus to imprison these refugees.

All during the latter stages of the British occupation of the area, they turned a blind eye to Arabs arming themselves - while raiding Jewish settlements to search for arms and imprisoning those who were in possession of them. Then they turned over key stong points to the Arabs as they left.

What's the point of all this? Simple. Had the Brits and the US allowed the Israelis, and, in fact, helped them, to achieve ultimate victory over their enemies, we wouldn't be experiencing the problems we have with Arab control of a huge portion of the world's oil reserves. And those Arabs wouldn't have the huge oil income to fund terrorism against us.

The West is sowing what it reaped when it backed the wrong side in the Middle East conflicts and/or prevented the Israelis from achieving complete victory over her, and our, enemies.

It is true that the left in this country would scream bloody murder if we actually went in and took the oil from the Sheiks, but I say, to Hades with 'em. As long as oil funds terror, we ought to take the control of the oil away from the terrorists and their supporters.

Cutting supply lines of your enemy is a classic war tactic. It's a matter of simple logic. Money is used to supply weapons and logistical support to our enemies. Oil revenue is the source for the money. Cut off their access to oil money and their ability to provide weaponry and other logistical support is eventually crippled. Take away their ability to acquire weaponry and other logistic requirements and their ability to create terror through mass destruction is effectively crippled. Without the ability to effectively impose mass terror, their reputation in their world is destroyed. With their reputation for effectively imposing terror is shattered, their ability to recruit personnel to carry out terror plots is crippled. You can't crash planes into buildings if you cannot recruit, get trained and/or fund personnel to fly the planes.

As Shakespeare said, "It follows as the night the day."
Brian
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Offline Major

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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2004, 10:58:25 AM »
I will add one thing on BamBams side of the equation, so you better sit down BamBams, I wouldn’t want you to fall over and hurt yourself.  

I do admit that there is a conspiracy going on.   It is the energy companies (oil and electricity) that have held back the development of solar and wind energy generation.   They can’t figure out how to change us for the wind and sunlight.   That is why they are looking at hydrogen.   Even though breaking down water can make hydrogen; not every one of us has the ability to do that so the energy companies will still be in business shafting us.

I know that the energy companies are up to no good and are always plotting for ways to squeeze us some more.   I just don’t think they have much say in what our army does and to whom they do it.

The only reason solar power generation has made much headway at all is because that is how we power our satellites in space.   If the only need was for the homeowner then it wouldn’t get developed at all.

So BamBams, does that help put the big picture a little more in focus?      

And I also believe what Brian just said about turning Israel loose and helping them is true.   If we were to cut off the supply of money the terrorists wouldn’t have funding.
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2004, 03:10:58 PM »
We'll have to agree to disagree like the gentlemen we are. I respect your opinion, and I hope you respect mine.

Of course I do Brian.  Like I said earlier, I'd love to be wrong, but I just can't see it.

There is one thing that you are way off base with regarding my attitude, but I can see where you might get that impression.

"You see how un-nerved YOU become at the mere suggestion of us controlling another country for oil?"


Well yeah, I made an assumption, thinking that you'd probably think it was immoral to take the oil from them.  I'm glad that isn't the case, and I agree with your logic on this point.

While it is still my belief that the war on terror that we are engaged in is not about acquiring oil, in point of fact, nothing would please me more than to go in and take over the oil fields from the present owners. One of the gripes I have with our government, as I believe I referred to is its putting the brakes on the Israelis when it looks like they are going to achieve complete victory in the wars started by the Arabs. If the Israelis had control of the oil we wouldn't be going through what we're being forced to do now.

Well that's also true, but when the dipstick runs dry, I could see us going at it with the Israelis also.  I doubt they could resist the greed to try and sell it to us at a zillion dollars a barrel.
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2004, 03:15:23 PM »
I do admit that there is a conspiracy going on.   It is the energy companies (oil and electricity) that have held back the development of solar and wind energy generation.   They can’t figure out how to change us for the wind and sunlight.   That is why they are looking at hydrogen.   Even though breaking down water can make hydrogen; not every one of us has the ability to do that so the energy companies will still be in business shafting us.

Excellent point!  The powers that be depend on those oil dollars and prevent any technology that would have shifted us to other energy sources.  They are indeed to blame for it now being too late for the world to get ahead of the curve.
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Offline MINNESOTA DICK

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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2004, 04:24:26 AM »
With the gas prices what they are maybe it is time to bring back the old VW Bug with the air cooled engine again  :wink:

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Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2004, 05:17:54 AM »
Quote from: BamBams

Well that's also true, but when the dipstick runs dry, I could see us going at it with the Israelis also.  I doubt they could resist the greed to try and sell it to us at a zillion dollars a barrel.
[/color]

Somehow I doubt that. There's a big difference between Israelis and Arabs. One group is "civilized" and the other is not. The Arab tradition of thievery goes back for millennia. If they get you at a disadvantage, they'll strip you bare. Remember the opening scenes in Patton in which Arabs rush in to strip our dead? This kind of thing really happened. I just cannot see this kind of behavior from the Israelis.

As I said, the Israelis have experience with being stabbed in the back - over and over again. I don't think they'd react to our support by screwing us when and if we experience extreme fuel shortages.

One thing that has characterized Israeli politics from the beginning is their honoring of their committments. They've been our friends in the area even when we've not been so supportive of them. For instance, in the Gulf War, despite their pain and severe provocation and temptation, they did not retaliate against the Iraqis. Why? Because we asked them not to enter the war and risk causing the break up of our coalition. That's a committment they honored although it surely was galling to do so.

Shalom aleichem![/size]
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2004, 08:57:47 PM »
Those are very convincing points Brian!  I wish I could say that I look forward to seeing if you're right.  I'm wondering if ammo can be made without petroleum?
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Offline Fla Brian

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« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2004, 05:56:47 PM »
Thanks, BB.

I always strive to be rational and logical in my thinking.
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Offline Major

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« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2004, 09:14:54 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
 I'm wondering if ammo can be made without petroleum?


Well yes, if all else fails we can still make black powder for those frontstuffers we all used to use.   :eek:  :)    :D
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2004, 02:53:22 AM »
California may hit $3.00 per gallon this summer?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114360,00.html
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Offline BLR

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« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2004, 08:15:24 PM »
Don't go into panic mode over this boleshevic nonsense. According to all the experts 30 years ago we were going to be out of oil in 30 years. We aren't close, and even if we were our economic system is going to create alternatives provided idiot ppoliticians don't get in the way. For example, I've been burning and 80/20 mix of diesel/vegatable oil in my marble grinder. Yeah, it costs a bit more, but in my area there's a minimal market and no distribution system. In Germany it's cheaper. Let's face it, we're a convenience society and our typical gas station is convenient. Do a little research, take a little extra time, and push that so called "peak" back 20% or so and see how fast the price of fuel comes down.

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« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2004, 12:42:02 PM »
BLR has a point here I think.  

Quote from: BLR
Don't go into panic mode over this boleshevic nonsense. According to all the experts 30 years ago we were going to be out of oil in 30 years. --------------------------------------- Let's face it, we're a convenience society and our typical gas station is convenient. Do a little research, take a little extra time, and push that so called "peak" back 20% or so and see how fast the price of fuel comes down.


If we can get folks to scale back a bit we can change things.
   
It is all about supply vs. demand that equals price.   If the demand drops so will the price just as supply cutback raises costs.   Lets see if we can make a differance.  
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2004, 03:06:02 AM »
Well, I'd suggest innovating pretty darn quickly.

In a move orchestrated to place further economic burden on America, OPEC has just decided to curtail a percentage of it's oil shipments.  I know, I know, we don't rely on OPEC for oil correct?  Well...let's just watch those prices continue to go up anyhow!

Can someone here proffer some "other" explaination as to why OPEC is suddenly limiting oil exportation? And who would have thought that our dear, OPEC friends would decide to use oil for strictly political reasons to try and influence our upcoming elections?  Me, that's who!

If you don't think "oil" is a factor in our middle east presence, then by all means, continue to watch things unfold.  So far, all I can see is that I'm right on the money.
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Offline magooch

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« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2004, 06:35:29 AM »
Quote from: New York Hunter
We've had almost 600 U.S. men and women die in the name of oil this past year alone. And another 300 or so in 1991. If you ask me we shouldn't be paying half of what were paying right now. We wouldn't be if we had a Government that had guts. :evil:


To continue spouting this stupid crap that we are losing people for the sake of oil is just plain ignorant.  If it was just for oil, it would be one heck of a lot cheaper, in dollars alone, to just buy the oil.  I think Saddam would have been more than happy to sell us all the oil he could suck out of the ground.  After all, he had at least a few more hundred palaces to build.  

I don't want to get into all of the motives and justification for the sacrifices of our finest.  

It's time to make the Dumbocraps bear the responsibility of denying us what would be, at least a damper to increasing oil prices and that is--not allowing the Anwar, in Alaska, to be opened for drilling.  Not to be too partisan; I assume there must have been a couple of squishy Repbubs who voted the wrong way on the issue also.
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« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2004, 09:18:09 AM »
Riddle me this:
If we have already toppled and captured Saddam, and we still have NO evidence of WMDs as purportedly the whole reason for going in, why in G-d's name are we the taxpayers ponying up billions to Halliburton to rebuild Iraq and its oil delivery systems.
If we truly feel the need to rebuild what we have ruined and / or truly aide the Iraqi people,  might I suggest Iraqi labor as a much more reasonable alternative.  I realize they would need some level of modern consultation, but why was this not done ????
We truly have to search for the answer to "What are we REALLY still doing there ?"
Law and order has decayed to chaos, and we are about to get bit by both sides of the coin over there.  And for what ????  Are we really doing this out of the kindness of our hearts ???
There must be something in it for our government, who is essentially no more than puppets of the wealthy.
When you can look yourself in the eye and answer that question honestly, then perhaps we can all pull the cart in the same direction.
Until then, all we are really doing is agreeing to disagree while injustice continues.  I would much rather see all those billions we wasted go towards improving our lot right here on our soil.  Much lower taxes come to mind amongst other things.
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Offline BLR

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« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2004, 09:35:56 AM »
Quote
 Well, I'd suggest innovating pretty darn quickly


It sure seems easy to point the finger and complain. As I said in my post this is a matter of convenience. How many people do you know that go out of their way to get a tankfull of 90/10 gas-ethanol blend or an 80/20 diesel-biodiesel blend? My bet is none, and I know some that go out of their way to avoid the ethanol blends. How about buying a hybrid car, motorcycle, or worse yet riding a bike? If we all took a hard look at how we use petroleum products, and I don't mean just fuels, I bet we could squeeze the Arabs rather than it being the other way around. This may actually be a blessing in disguise as it's going to expand markets for existing alternatives and quite likely result in some new ones as well.

Let's have some optimism here and get started!!

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« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2004, 01:40:16 PM »
Quote from: BLR
Quote
 Well, I'd suggest innovating pretty darn quickly


It sure seems easy to point the finger and complain. As I said in my post this is a matter of convenience. How many people do you know that go out of their way to get a tankfull of 90/10 gas-ethanol blend or an 80/20 diesel-biodiesel blend? My bet is none, and I know some that go out of their way to avoid the ethanol blends. How about buying a hybrid car, motorcycle, or worse yet riding a bike? If we all took a hard look at how we use petroleum products, and I don't mean just fuels, I bet we could squeeze the Arabs rather than it being the other way around. This may actually be a blessing in disguise as it's going to expand markets for existing alternatives and quite likely result in some new ones as well.

Let's have some optimism here and get started!!


I am with you BLR.  

While I didn’t get a hybrid car, because I needed a truck to haul and pull heavy loads, I went  diesel for the better fuel mileage.  I would get the 80/20 diesel-biodiesel blend if it were available here and I think we definitely need to do more with Hydrogen and Solar Power than is being done now.

You are right about high fuel costs actually being a blessing in disguise as it's going to expand markets for existing alternatives and quite likely result in some new ones as well.
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