NEF's in 44 Mag, likes/dislikes 444 conversions

[handirifle]

Am thinking of 44 Mag handi for close hunting and maybe later conversion to 444 marlin.

How accurate are they (scoped) and how well does the 444 conversion work?

[Big Blue]

handirifle,
  I don't have a Handi in .44 mag. , but I do use a Marlin with a 16 1/4" barrel for deer. It's a great close in deer rifle good out to 100-125 yards. I use cast 320 gr. handloads in it and they work great on whitetails. I have often thought of getting a Handi in that caliber, and having the barrel cut down to a good brush length. There is enough power in the .44 mag. that I can't see rechambering to the .444 Marlin for close in work. I got a buck in the first two hours of the season last year using the .44 mag. at 80 yards and it dropped where it stood.
Don

[safetysheriff]

Handi'

From what I've seen the .44 do out of a short-barreled revolver, I'd expect a Handi' in .44 mag' to be good out to 175 yds or a little more -- except for the trajectory possibly being a problem -- if the right jacketed hollow-point is used for whitetails.    I said it when we were on the other site, and have heard nothing different since then, the deer-slaying is better done with medium-weight jacketed bullets.     The black bears are better done with the heaviest of jacketed bullets or else the heavier hardcast -- if the rifle will shoot them well.    

I'd recommend a 240 gr' Hornady xtp as my first try for a deer hunt out of a Handi' -- because it should be a flatter shooter than a 300 gr' bullet.

The .444 strikes me as needlessly powerful and inefficient for either deer or black bear.     I'd go with Win-296,  H-110, or bulk powder WC-820 loaded per the label, to get excellent velocity out of the .44.     The deer you hit well will be decently taken.....

Blessings on your endeavor.

SS'

[handirifle]

Thanks for the feedback all.

[JPH45]

Handirifle...of late I have been rethinking the 445 Super Mag. I think that Big Bore Fan was going to do this convertion, and it struck me that with a 45-70, (BBF has one of those too) there was little if nothing to be gained by the 445 SM rechamber. But I think I may be wrong about that. Especially where the Handi is concerned.

Ballistically, I think the 270 grain weights are superior to the 300's. Run the figures. The 270's moving at 1600 fps (a rifle length barrel) not only start out with more velocity than the 300's, they keep it. and the energy diffeences are so minimal that they can be ignored for practical purposes. From a revolver barrel, it makes sence to use a 300 grainer, the extra weight does translate to better penetration, but froma rifle barrel, the 44 case simply doesn't have enough capacity to push the 300's to a velocity that is competitive with a lighter weight projectile. The 445 however, offers the needed case capacity to drive the 300's to the desired level of velocity (1700 fps or so) and it also offers the 250's-270's at velocities pushing 2000 fps. Those are pretty serious velocity gains without the undesired recoil penalty of the extra powder used in the 444. Yes, the 444 would be faster by about as much again as the 445 SM is faster than the 44 Mag, but on deer or bear, I doubt the extra velocity is usefull for anything. The added benefit of the 445 Super Mag is that the chamber is still suitable for using the 44 Magnum, unlike the 444 Marlin.

It is well worth considering. Once I got beyond my own prejudices about the quest of more velocity being somekind of holy grail, I was able to come to a more honest evaluation about rechambering a handi to 445 SM. I'm even beginning to consider it seriously myself. I might even have to go to Big Bore Fan and eat a few peices of my hat :roll:

[handirifle]

Since I know nothing of the 445 where would I find some detailed info on it?

Since I know nothing about it, would it not be just as easy to download some 444 loads to 445 levels?  Or even to 44 Mag levels for that matter?  Just playing the devils advocate here.  I have no preferrences either way, except the 44 mag ammo would be cheaper and easier to find.

[handirifle]

I just found some info on www.reloadbench.com but was wondering.  It says it is made from a shortened 444 Marlin case.  How much shorter is it?

Would the 445 be a 100-150yd elk caliber?

[JPH45]

If I remember correctly, go to www.danwessonarms.com (or something very like it, may need to do a search) they have lots of data as it is a propriety chambering of theirs. It was originally created using highly modified 444 cases, but that is no longer nessicary, new brass can be purchased, Starline is the maker and it is simply a lengthend 44 mag case. It is somewhat expensive, $30.00 for 50 cases, but if they are of the same quality as the Starline 44 Mag cases I am curently using, reduced loaded cases would last practically forever. I have been shooting the same 44 cases for the last year, certainly at reduced pressures, but I have not yet lost any due to any kinds of cracks, and have loaded them at least 30 times.

Also go to www.accuratearms.com they have the 445 SM though the data is developed in 10" barrels. Note that the 445 does in a 10" barrel what the 44 Mag does in a rifle length barrel, and the 445's usefullness in a rifle barrel becomes very apparent.

Yes, one could use reduced loads in a 444 and get the same velocity performance, and I do think the 444 is somewhat superior to the 45-70 with 300 grain bullets. All else being equal, the smaller diameter bullet should give better penetration and fly a little better than its larger diameter cousin.

Personally, I wouldn't have a 444 over a 45-70, the latter is much better suited to the use of heavir bullets, and if an elk cartridge is what you seek, I think the heavier bullet you use the better. However, I am no Layne Simpson, and in the most recent edition of Shooting Times he does a great discourse on the 444 and ends with his taking of a 400 pound caribou at some 265 yards using a 250 grain Nosler Partition. In your location and hunting opportunities the 444 could serve you well indeed. If you can't find this copy, let me know, I will be glad to photo copy the article and send it to you.

Edit:case length is the same as the the 357 Maximum, 1.6". Firures, both are the work of Elgin Gates.

[Ditchdigger]

I'm also still interested in the 445 mainly because of recoil. JPH 45 is right about the velocitys, and it would be a ideal starter gun for a youngster or a woman. Start them out with 44 specials or 44 mags.and as there skills improve, move them on up.  I don't think the 44 mags. will work in the 444. 1 reloading book I have lists the 445 with a 240 gr. at 1950 fps from a 14" barrel, so the 270 gr. Gold Dot should do about 1950 or 2000 fps.
I'm not sure if it would break a shoulder blade on a elk at 150 yds. but a rib shot would probably do him in.   Digger

[De41mag]

Handirifle;

Just got back from the range today with my ultra 44mag. Had some 44mag rounds for my S&W 629 5". 10gr. of Unique with a Keith 250gr. SWC. I thought what the heck I'll try them in the rifle. I was at 100yds. after a couple of shots to make scope adj. on the 4X Leupold, I was ready to try for groups. Had some Shoot-N-See 3 inch circle targets. Started shooting and boy was I surprised. This bullet was accurate. I could keep five shots in those 3" circles time and time again. My regular load is a 265gr. RNFP-GC with 21.5gr. of H-110. Also trying some 210gr. Speer GDHP's but haven't found the right combo yet. So in summary the only bullets that group in my Ultra is cast bullets, and it's a Micro-Grove barrel.
I'm well pleased with my 44mag. barrel.
Just thought you might be interested.
Dennis  :grin:

[Longcruise]

Handi, here's my twisted thoughts on the subject!!

45-70

300 to 350 grain bullets at 1100 to 1500 fps.  Reasonable recoil, potential for a much bigger bullet if you decide to hunt sasquatch during the mating season, no fretting over the dratted 1/38 handi twist and you'll be able to start threads like "What's the best cast load for the 45-70" :-D

If H&R would offer the .44 in a 1/20 or even 1/28 twist I'd be jostling my way to the head of the line!!

Not likely to happen though :cry:

[safetysheriff]

j.d. jones of ssk industries has stated in his/larry kelly's handgun hunting book that his hardcast 320 gr' .44 mag projectile can be made to do approx' 1400 fps safely from a 7 1/2" - barreled revolver.      if need be, i'd just use a gas check'd bullet to help with the accuracy, if that works with your rifle.     why bother with a .444?     yes, i'd somewhat consider elgin gates .445 supermag' , but not before giving the .44 mag a thorough wring-out.    

accurate arms manual #1 shows 1488 fps out of a 20" barreled Winchester, using the sierra 300 gr' jsp.....and only 19 gr's of aa#9 at 40,000 cup.    the 1991 nra "handloading" shows 43,500 cup as max' allowed for factory average.....

[Ditchdigger]

S.S. ; That must be a fairly mild load in the 300gr. 44 mag. load,I'm getting 1379 fps. from my 10.5" barrel SBH.Ruger,with a.5 grain from max. of 296.  Digger

[handirifle]

All good points to consider.

If I go with a 44 barrel I will definately give it a real go before I even try to rechamber but was wondering how they went.  The twist seems a little slow for the heavier bullets but no one seems to have trouble, at least with slower loads.

longcruise,
That IS my delema.  I'm for sure getting another big bore barrel but was curious about the 44 mag since even factory loads will be mild compared to the 45-70.  Just wondering how it fared against game.

I ran the loads on my BC from mild to wild and am sure nothing much could stand up against them.  Might just have to go with the old 45-70 again.  I do still have about 50rds of brass.  Just wish I hadn't sold off all the bullets I had.

[James B]

I love my 44 Mag Handi rifle. Wouldn't change a thing.

[marv]

I agree with James B. [above] I f you can get a load that shoots
good, it  will do to 175 to 200 yds My 2 1/2 cents. Marv.