ultra not grouping as good as i hope

[mitchell]

i bought 223 ultra about 6 weeks ago and thanks to it the bank is empty, so no money for dies.  any how i bought some factory bullets (wolf 55 FMJ, winchest 45 JPH's, winchest 55 FMJ and UMC 55) and none of them would shoot . the wolf were all over the place , winchest 45 JPH's (white box ammo) was about an inch and a half, winchester 55 FMJ's were about a little under 1 1/2 inches , and umc (thank God) just about an inch maybe under (depending on which group you look at).  now i've not free floated the barrel yet but besides that i don't know what else to do ? anybody else have any factory stuff that your rifle likes? or any other tricks you can do to the gun?

[Paul5388]

Most people consider 1"-1 1/2" with factory loads to be pretty good groups.  You might try floating the forearm and check again.  

Try for a consistant resting place on the forearm.  Most try to use the area just forward of the trigger guard as the resting point, but I find the action has more tendency to auto open after shooting.  Too much unsupported weight and certainly not consistant with the way you would hold a rifle in the field.  IMHO, the forearm screw is the best place to rest and would tend to simulate a field situation better than other resting points.

[olredhead]

Mitchell, Paul has a good idea. Also read back over the past threads on new rifle troubles, this forum has some awfully good people on it with a lot of experience.
My standard 223 wouldn't group with anything but Win. supreme when new but after trying several of the posted fixes is down to MOA on white box and supreme, UMC is still of the board. Also remember you are learning to shoot a new rifle and the two of you have to learn how to work together to get those little bitty holes. Keep pluggin away, good luck.

[handirifle]

mitch
You might just need to give it some time.  I think these barrels leave the factory a little rough because most of them "shoot in" after about 200-300rds have gone through them.

My sons 223 was just about to go on sale till that point and now it loves the Win value pak ammo.  It'll print 3/4" groups all day long with that stuff.  I can't make it better with reloads (don't need to either)

My Ultra has only seen about 75rds so far but it is showing improvement.  Mine was not grouping well at all until I loaded some 35gr Vmax loads.  There is someone that makes a factory 40gr load you might try till it shoots in.  Mine really seemed to like the little bullet.

Lotsa luck, just keep shooting.  I'd stick with the cheap stuff till it smooths out.

[mitchell]

well then how do you guys feel about fire-lapping? should smooth it out a bit.

[olredhead]

Again I followed an old post and Flitzed mine using a Hoppes cotton swab, about fifty strokes. Added a small amount of Flitz about every 15 strokes. Also polished the chamber with the swab chucked in a cordless drill.
Might check your crown.

[scruffy]

I agree with olredhead.  I don't like firelapping.  These 223's are deep throated enough without taking some more off....  Handlapping or running 1000 rounds through it, either one is what I would do.  For immediate results I'd use hand lapping.  But for the fun factor, a break in p-dog hunt would be more fun.

Also like redhead said, check the crown, or have the crown recut or pollished.

Also, the usual, be sure your scope mount hasn't worked loose, rings are tight, butt stock bolt is tight, sand bagged under hinge pin, etc.  And these 223's have a 1-12" twist, so in general they like smaller bullets (55 grains and smaller).  You might try some more 40-50 grain offerings.  How often are you cleaning the barrel?  Might try cleaning more and cleaning less.  Some barrels like it clean, others like it fowled up a little (not alot...).  What optics do you have?  For sub moa groups a 6-18 or 6-24 (or 8-32, fixed 40x, etc....) are typically alot better than a typical 3-9x40 scope.  Also, try different targets.  I have targets laying around with 6" black bulls, 1" black bulls, 1" orange squares, etc.  Given the thickness off the crossairs, magnification of the scope, lighting conditions at the range, etc all targets are not all the same, some your eyes will be able to see better.  Does the rifle surpise you when you pull the trigger?  if so, alot of people will say good, I say bad, I want the rifle to go off when the cross airs are dead center over the bulls eye.  Know your trigger and the groups will shrink.  What's your shooting position at the bench?  Feet, shoulders, etc?  Does your cheak/butt stock have the proper cheak weld?  You might want to look into a cheak pad if not.  Do you have only one sand bag?  I like having two, one under the henge pin, one under the butt stock.  After lining everything up I hold onto the rear bag with my off hand, not the butt stock.  Are you shooting with a full breath in your lungs or have you exhailed first?  Most people shoot better with a half full or empty (or near empty) chest of air.

Do you have any friends that are bench shooters that can take you out and look at your shooting position to see if it looks stable, consistant, etc?  Also, another set of hands shooting your rifle is always a good indication if it's something the shooters doing wrong or the rifle.

whew.  Gotta give the old fingers a rest.  :wink:

later,
scruffy

[handirifle]

mitchell
I agree with redhead, I used JB's bore paste on my chamber and barrel and accuracy is improving quicker than on my sons rifle.  I also have not had a stuck case either (yet?)

Inch and 1/2 is not bad for starting out.  Once these babys settle in they do real well but sometimes it takes some work.

[mitchell]

WOW scruffy you are full of air . j/k man you guys have a lot of advise . well gosh where do i start . well i know the scope if fine everything is tight . the scope does hold zero well (i had it on my 308 mauser) its a 6-24X50 so i can see the target just fine . i do mostly bench shooting but for gun i have only shot prone with two sand bags although the one was right under the forend (maybe it need floated).my breathing is fine , trust me after hours and hours of being taught buy two shooting buddies i think i have it down, the trigger is awesome it has no lead breaks at 2# feels great. most of my rifles like their barrels fowled up a good bit so i haven't tryed it with a very clean barrel , might try that. i've never lapped a barrel before (most of my rifles are used and they don't have to have a break-in) maybe i'll go get 200-300 rounds of wolf and just have a little fun.

keep your ideas coming gentlemen, and i'll keep you posted.

[scruffy]

WOW scruffy you are full of air . i do mostly bench shooting but for gun i have only shot prone with two sand bags although the one was right under the forend (maybe it need floated).

Better full of air than other stuff...  :wink:

Even with the forearm floated bagging under the forearm creates a pressure point at the forearm lug (screw), putting upward pressure on the rifle barrel.  As the barrel heats and differences in hold from shot to shot, that pressure has different effects on barrel harmonics dispersing the POI, widening the group.  In extreme cases causing stringing, in more mild cases just dispersed groups.

Sandbagging under the reciever, hinge pin, etc will not put any, or very little, pressure on the forearm lug so the harmonics are much more consistant from shot to shot.

If you give it a try let me know the difference.  Often a 2" rifle will drop to 1" or below.

later,
scruffy

[Ditchdigger]

When your on the sandbags try this. I have to really pound my handi down in the bags to steady it, so dry fire it a few rds. and watch the crosshairs and make sure they don't move. When the hammer drops on mine it always moves unless its really tight in the bags.  Digger

[stevex]

mitchell,
 I recently purchased a 223Ultra and it took a little while to get it to shoot great.I started using the Winchester45 gr white box ammo (shot about 3 boxes=120 rounds),then I tried BlackHills 55gr soft points(almost 2 boxes =100 rounds).Both of these ammo choices will shoot 1" at 100.Its getting better each time I go out.I shoot off of a bipod or shooting sticks and I couldnt be more pleased with the rifle.I havent tried sand bags yet.

[jeff223]

Mitchel,i sent you a PM

[MarkA]

I am also getting upset over my groups.  Let first ask, however, if the use of a bi pod would affect them.  I notice y'all are saying to put the bag under the hinge.  Of course, the bi pod is attached to the sling stud and is very nearly all the way to the end of the fore end piece.  Is a bi pod a No No for NEF accuracy?

[Mac11700]

mitchell:

You need to follow thru with the trigger also...all the way thru and hold..just don't let the trigger break and release...this has to do with the transfer bar alignment and you have to be consistant doing this...I read about this on the old NEF site ...and I tried it and it does help.

MarkA...as long as the bi-pod isn't allowing the barrel to make contact with the forearm wood it shouldn't affect it...if it is then you might want to relieve the   wood in the barrel channel and then reseal it.

Mac

[scruffy]

I am also getting upset over my groups.  Let first ask, however, if the use of a bi pod would affect them.  I notice y'all are saying to put the bag under the hinge.  Of course, the bi pod is attached to the sling stud and is very nearly all the way to the end of the fore end piece.  Is a bi pod a No No for NEF accuracy?

MarkA, IMHO, anything that puts pressure on the forearm is transfered to the forearm lug which is transfered to the barrel.  Free floated or not, the forearm is connected/supported by the forearm lug attached to the barrel.  So when using a bipod the weight of the rifle creates upward pressure on the barrel and any twisting from your grip is also transfered to the barrel lug to the barrel.

But, in all honesty, we could talk this to death and the only thing that matters is what your rifle likes.  Take three 5 shot groups as a baseline with the rifle as is (or out of box) condition using the bipod.  Then use an o-ring to float the barrel/forearm and shoot another 3 groups of 5 shots.  The remove the oring and place a business card between the barrel and forearm located between the barrel lug and reciever, as close to the reciever as possible.  Shoot another 3 groups of 5 shots.  Measure and compare.  Also during this process, perform whatever cleaning is necessary, like clean between rifle adjustments and then shoot a few fouling shots before shooting the 3 groups per stage.

If you have plenty of ammo repeat the process with sandbags instead of the bipod to measure the difference.  Also note any changes in POI (point of impact).  If it drops, rises, moves to the right, etc denotes the barrel was or is now under pressure.

When this is all done, you'll know the most accurate rest setup for your rifle.

Note, placing the business card as close to the reciever as possible will "float" the barrel from the business card forward and also move the presure point from the forearm lug backwards to the business card, closer to the reciever.  The closer the pressure point is to the reciever the less leverage it has, therefor having less effect on the barrel's harmonics and stress.

Hope this helps!!!

later,
scruffy

[Ditchdigger]

I place the business card in front of the forend lug, and use a bipod. This is the only thing that helps mine. Digger

[Paul5388]

Hmmm, the best barrel resting points can be a matter of opinion sometimes and at other times it can certainly be demonstrated which is the best for a particular gun.

This is a picture of my .22 Hornet, with barrel courtesy of BigBoreFan.  It is on a 12 gauge receiver and forearm and I just put a 4-12X 40 mm on it yesterday.   The barrel floats all the way back to the receiver and the trigger takes a gorilla to pull it.


I shot it today with the forearm rested on the forearm screw in a Caldwell cheapo rest in front and a bean bag under the butt.  This is a .67" group at 100 yards using cheapo Winchester 46 gr HP's at about $5.45/100 from Midway.



Then there was this 40 gr V-Max group shot today in 1.07" at 100 yards with the resting point the same as the first group.  (I need to try them with Lil'Gun and get them over 2600 fps)



I hate to say it, but you will use the forearm when you shoot in the field, unless you rig up some sort of palm rest under the receiver.  If you ever plan on doing anything besides punching holes in paper, you better have something that will shoot with some pressure on the forearm.

Move the bipod back under the forearm screw, if possible, and see what it will do there, in addition to the other suggestions.

I forgot to say, the Lil'Gun load, with the heavier bullet, averaged 2609 fps, but the V-Max load was only 2550 fps.  That's one of the reasons I need to try the V-Max with Lil'Gun!