Author Topic: .50 cal roundball with 1/48 rifling twist (Read 3410 times)

Norseman · « **on:** April 23, 2004, 12:25:52 PM »

I need inputs on owners of .50 cal rifles using a 1/48 twist barrel. What kind of accuracy do you get with this in- between rifling twist, as I know that most experts suggest a slower twist such as a 1/66. What have been your results with the 1/48 using round balls, loads, patch etc? Seems like most reproduction traditional rifles come with the 1/48. I am interested in the Pedersoli Frontier (Flint) rifle in .50, but the 1/48 twist concerns me. Help me out boys, can't afford to go complete custom.

l.cutler · « **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2004, 12:42:42 PM »

I wanted a cheap knockaround percussion rifle, so I bought a Cabelas hawken made by Investarms. 50 cal. 1 in 48 twist . With 70 grains of fffg and .490 round ball, .018 patch this thing is awesome! It will outshoot my custom made longrifle with ease. At fifty yards five shots will consistently cut one ragged hole. It has become my favorite muzzleloader except for the cheezy sights.

Snowshoe · « **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2004, 02:46:20 PM »

I have a Lyman Deerstalker in .50 cal with a 1 in 48" twist, and I use .495 balls most of the time. It shoots 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 80 yards. I use 80g of Goex FFG or Pyrodex, and have even given 777 a go with the same results.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2004, 02:51:40 PM »

I think you will find that with that twist rate you will achieve the most consistant results with charges lighter than maximum. The slower twist will let you get more velocity than the 1:48, but I think you will be satisified with something in the area of 70 grains of FFg or a comparable charge of FFFg.

lostid · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2004, 03:40:59 PM »

Yup,gotta agree with the 3 gents above!

Ya don't need max loads for up too deer size game, and if you really spend the time and "learn" the arm,,you can expect 4" at 100 prb.

I know a feller that has that Pedrosoli rifle, a fine weapon, he loves it, he took his 1st bear with it last fall.(he'd aquired the rifle in early spring). I know he used a maxiball,but I can't remember which one it was right now.

Don't understate the lowley 1-48,,most can be X buster's out too 50 and provide great "minute of deer" at 100 if you do your part,,

Just a bit of advise though,,you'll need to put 200-300 ball through it just for break in and learning! that's the way of it. good shootin don't come from easy answers.

luck too ya,and best wishes,,,,,,,

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2004, 03:45:23 PM »

I use Bed Ticking,get it in any yardage shop,it is .15 with 80 gr Pyrodex and get 2",and punch tacks---not always the one I pick though.

Norseman · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:36:49 AM »

Thanks for the inputs guys...keep 'em coming. I am looking at the Pedersoli Frontier Rifles and trying not to go custom. My wife would scalp me. Anyway...what do you think then of a .45 cal with a 1/48 twist? Would it be sufficient for deer size game at reasonable distances? For example, I was checking in the new Track of the Wolf catalog, and while browsing the custom barrel maker Colerain's barrels I noted something interesting! Rifling twist for the following calibers were noted:

-.36 cal 1/48"
-.40 cal 1/48"
-.45 cal 1/48"
-.50 cal 1/56"
-.54 cal 1/56"
-.58 cal 1/66"

So, I wonder if I should go with the .45 cal in the Frontier Rifle made by Pedersoli considering what a found above with the "Custom" barrels that Colerain produces IF the .45 roundball is good on deer sized game at a realistic distance (100 yards and under)? What do you think guys?
Also is the Pedersoli Frontier Rifle in flint worth the effort? Is it a good parker.

Keep your powder dry<><

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2004, 12:15:38 PM »

Quote

Anyway...what do you think then of a .45 cal with a 1/48 twist? Would it be sufficient for deer size game at reasonable distances?

The 1:48 would be considered a good round ball twist for the 45 caliber, and you would be able to push it a bit faster. Flatter trajectory, but the size of the ball about 125 grain compared to a 175 grain for a 50.

It would all depend upon the quary you are hunting and the country you hunt it in.

My flinter is a 45 cal T/C Hawken with the 1:48 twist and it shoots great. All the others are larger bores in percussion.

Longcruise · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2004, 05:09:11 PM »

Norseman, don't let that 1/48 twist scare you off regardless of caliber. My .50 tc with 1/48 shoots just fine all the way up to 100 grains of ff and a .54 TC shot great at 100 grains too.

TC made a bunch of big bore .58 guns with 1/48 twist and they shoot good too according to the guys who own them.

The 1803 harpers ferry .54 rifle was made with a 1/56 twist from day one and never changed. It had a good rep for accuracy.

Many of the guns from the 1700 and 1800 periiod were barreled with faster twist rates with 1/48 being very common even on the larger bore guns.

The "conventional wisdom" regarding twist rates has been repeated so many times it is now considered gospel, but strangely actual experience often does not bear it out. :grin:

Added via edit: Last summer I picked up a Traditions Deerhunter .50 cal with 1/48 twist for my wife. Don't remember the kit price right off but it seems like it was about $125. It's a fine accurate gun and not even broken in yet.

jgalar · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2004, 02:59:42 AM »

The depth that the rifling is cut has a lot to do with the ability to shoot patched balls also.

ogemakw · « **Reply #10 on:** April 26, 2004, 11:41:37 AM »

I have 2 .50 cal. rifles w/ 1:48 twist. 1 is a TC renegade the other is a cabelas made by pedersoli. Both shoot fine, if you like the looks of the frontier, get it. If you want an inexpensive rifle w 1:66 twist, why not go with the lyman gpr? (either way it will get you out shooting, making smoke and noise!) :grin: :grin: :grin:

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #11 on:** April 26, 2004, 12:16:03 PM »

The original Hawkens were made with a 1 in 48" twist, IIRC. That rate of twist is a good compromise, it will let you shoot round ball or conicals with decent accuracy. I also had a Cabela's Hawken for a while (bought used for $100 because it was unreliable - the hammer was dragging on the stock so I "formed" it with a judicious rap with a hammer and it shot very well). I was very impressed with the accuracy of this rifle. I never shot it from a bench, but from the sitting position it kept the shots within 6" at 100 yards, as good as I am going to shoot.

There are lots of folks who use the .45 for whitetails. I remember one person posting on another website that he shot his deer in the left shoulder and the round ball in the right hip, just under the skin. Or you can use an elongated bullet like the Lee REAL if you feel the r.b. isn't heavy enough.

Alaska requires a minimum of .45 caliber, 250 grains bullets for ML big game hunting, except for deer you can use round ball.

-WH-

Naphtali · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2004, 04:05:46 AM »

A while back I asked similar questions regarding accuracy, rates of twist, and axial rotation. The American Rifleman responded with information on THE GREENHILL FORMULA for determining twist. From my own records:

Quote

A method for estimating correct rate of twist was developed prior to WW I by Sir George Greenhill. His formula states that the product of the rate of twist and the bullet in calibers should equal 150.

Example:
The optimum rate of twist for Sierra's .30-caliber 200-gr MatchKing would be computed as (T)(L)=150 where:

T=rate of twist
L=bullet length in calibers (1.405"/.308) or 4.561688311688
T=150/4.56
T=32.89 calibers

To convert calibers to inches, multiply by the bullet diameter. In this example, (32.89)(.308)=10.1 inches.

According to Greenhill's formula, then, the proper rate of twist for the Sierra .30-caliber, 200-gr MatchKing is 1:10". That said, and with all due respect to Greenhill, some long-range [smokeless powder] shooters are experimenting with slower rates of twist.

1) .900" long .62-cal (.625") bullet needs 1:65" twist..
2) .900" long .58-cal (.580") bullet needs 1:56" twist.
3) .900" long .54-cal (.540") bullet needs 1:52" twist.
4) .625" RB .62-cal (.625") needs 1:144" twist (1:150 is the number).
*******
5) Longest bullet .54-cal (.540") Lyman GPR 1:60 barrel can stabilize is .729".
*******
8) Lee R.E.A.L. 250-grain bullet .50-cal (.500") #90393 (90394 is double-cavity mold #) is .580" long. Lyman GPR 1:60 barrel can stabilize up to .615".
9) Lee R.E.A.L. 320-grain bullet .50-cal (.500") #90395 (90396 is double-cavity mold #) is .730" long unsatisfactory. Lyman GPR 1:60 barrel can stabilize up to .615".

MB, August 1998, pg 42, col 2, ¶2: A pleasant surprise resulted from my RB barrel (26"/,012" rifling/1:60" twist) with 100 grains FFg/Pyrodex Select. I was getting unique "S" shaped trajectory with a 430-gr T/C Maxi-Ball. Slug would drop at muzzle, be a little low at 25 yds, right on at 50 yds, a little high at 100 yds, with 1-1/2" groups at 100 yds.

Without doing the math, we can deduce that 1:48 is way too fast a twist for .490" RBs. That nineteenth-century rifle barrels use this twist regularly doesn't alter the deduction. Something to think about is that perhaps one reason for DEEP grooves is to hold RBs to prevent them from stripping during their excessive axial rotation as they travel down the bore.

Please note that the larger the bore ID, the slower the twist needed to stabilize the projectile. So a 1:48 .50-caliber bore is not so out of whack as a 1:48 .62-caliber bore.

crow_feather · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2004, 04:05:55 PM »

Which brings up an interesting question. Does the ball obturate enough that it enters the grooves, or does it "strip" by not rotating with the patch,
or does the patch not follow the grooves and just blow down the barrel like in a smooth bore?

C F

Longcruise · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2004, 02:31:09 AM »

Quote

Without doing the math, we can deduce that 1:48 is way too fast a twist for .490" RBs. That nineteenth-century rifle barrels use this twist regularly doesn't alter the deduction. Something to think about is that perhaps one reason for DEEP grooves is to hold RBs to prevent them from stripping during their excessive axial rotation as they travel down the bore.

I find the Greenhill formula to be interesting but not really applicable to round ball shooting. I believe it was actually formulated for artillery ammunition. It is equally inapplicable to modern cartridge rifles. If you doubt that, measure the length of some of your favorite modern cartridge bullets and run them through the Greenhill formula. You will find that many of the heavy for caliber bullets calculate to be too long to stabilize, yet they shoot well! Further, they have to overcome certain drag and air resistance factors as well as center of gravity issues.

I don't think round balls have any significant stabiltiy issues. They shoot quite well out to reasonalble ranges with no rifling at all. OTOH, I've had a number of 1/48 and even faster twist barrels that shot very well with round balls. Even with heavy loads I've never observed them to strip the lands.

There are many ideas that circulate within the ml fraternity that are not based on any scientific fact whatsoever. Mostly they are simply speculation or assumptions that have been so often repeated that they are viewed as facts. Heck for some they are beliefs. :grin:

Not trying to be a wet blanket or put anybody down here, just reflecting on many years of observations some of which have convinced me that much of what we think is factual is not.

Naphtali · « **Reply #15 on:** May 07, 2004, 04:33:43 AM »

I believe Longcruise is partially correct. RBs tend to have fewer gyroscopic stability problems than cylindrical bullets. The point about 1:48" twist being too rapid remains valid.

Were you intending to achieve muzzle velocities near the maximum for ML RB -- I would put this number near 2300 ft/sec, with the practical maximum being about 2200 ft/sec -- it is at these velocities that too rapid twist becomes a problem.

Longcruise, you are correct. Sir George created tables for artillery projectiles. Nonetheless, when you do the math, formula functions effectively as mean to estimate correct rate of twist. As I mentioned in the questioned thread, long-range shooters try slower rates of twist.

Back to the conclusion: can Longcruise and I be correct at the same time? You be the judge.

1. RBs are forgiving of non-optimal twist.
2. Within reasonable parameters any normally available rate of twist will get the RB downrange accurately.
3. As your loads become larger, slower rates of twist will maintain accuracy more easily than quicker twists.
4. When you hover around theoretical maximum muzzle velocities, quick twists for RBs should -- should does not mean "carved in stone" -- yield significantly better accuracy with S L O W rates of twist.
5. Larger bore IDs require slower rates of twist for bullets' axial stability than smaller bores.

Whaddayah think, Longcruise? Can we agree on this?
********
Regarding obduration aka windage, I have not examine spent RBs. I have examined patching. It has been my understanding that RBs are not intended to obdurate grooves when used with patching. The less RB upset, the better the accuracy.

How reduced RB upset and hammering patched ball down the muzzle matches up I don't know. Clearly, my understanding is imperfect.

Ease of loading, best accuracy (should read "consistency"), and the hammering that occurs during our ML matches should be incompatible. Since best accuracy comes from false muzzles, using bore ID RBs with patching, et.al., I better shut up.

Norseman · « **Reply #16 on:** May 07, 2004, 04:48:52 AM »

I appreciate everyones replied to the issue of 1/48 rifling twists! I am leaning toward the Pedersoli Frontier rifle. (They of course come only in 1/48). I like the style of the rifle- ie Southern Mountain and would like to get into buckskining for the time period of late 1700's early 1800'sa. I can't really afford custom (although the TVM Southern Rifle is tempting me but my wife would shoot me if I paid that much for a muzzleoader-lola).
I want to go flint obviously, and was wonder if anyone can tell me if the Pedersoli's are good "sparkers"?
Another use of the rifle would be for deer hunting, where else but the Blue Ridge Mountains of my home state of Virginia. So I am considering going for the .45 cal ball BUT might lean towards the 50 cal. The dilemma is the rifling twists and the .45 cal seems to be ok for 1/48, and the .50 seems a bit fast for 1/48. The inputs from you all seem to put the theory of slow twists like the 1/66" as being chiseled in stone questionable, since there are many positive replies from this forum that contradict it. I think the amount of powder used for example, using large amounts of powder to the max might strip the patch. Keeping the powder charge reasonable-usually the lower charge is more accurate anyway would be a way around the rifling twist issue. Does' this sound logical? Anyway I have seen deer dropped with one 12 Ga 00 buck ball-yes I said one. I know it doesn't take a cannon to kill a deer, as a have quite a few under my belt with both gun, shotgun (not the single 00 ball one-that was another guy-lol) and with my Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54 (percussion). Shot placement is essential and even then doesn't guarantee an animal will drop in it's tracks.

SO, ARE THE PEDERSOLI FLINT RIFLES RELIABLE SPARKERS?

??

"Keep you powder dry boys"!

The mountain Norseman

Naphtali · « **Reply #17 on:** May 07, 2004, 07:24:15 AM »

The Mortimer flintlock (S.438) is one of the two finest productions locks available. It is the only production lock available with a safety. But only for righties.

It can be obtained separately through:

BEAUCHAMP & SON INC.
DBA Flintlock's Etc.
160 Rossiter Road,
RICHMOND, MA 01254
Ph.: 413-698-3822
Fax: 413-698-3866
E-mail: flintetc@berkshire.rr.com

It is very expensive but worth it.

Norseman · « **Reply #18 on:** May 07, 2004, 01:36:38 PM »

What time frame where original Mortimers made? What are your results from Pedersoli reproductions? Any history about original Mortimers? Your inputs are appreciated!

Naphtali · « **Reply #19 on:** May 08, 2004, 05:29:30 AM »

Norseman: S.438 has every feature of a best-quality English lock circa 1810-1830. Its competitor is L&R's Late English Lock (M900/1000). Quality of these three locks is similar. What is missing from L&Rs is the horizontally sliding safety. If I were right-handed, and was unwilling to pay for a built-to-order flintlock, S.438 is the lock I would own.

For a history of the gunmaker: Munson, H. Lee, The Mortimer Gunmakers, 1753-1923.

Pedersoli makes good stuff. Excepting their side-by-side percussion caplock guns and rifles, they make nothing for left-handers.
********
Note: The US distributor of the lock special orders them only two times per year. I believe the next order is coming sometime in May. If you want one but they do not have one in stock, and their next order date is in five months . . .

Ramrod · « **Reply #20 on:** May 08, 2004, 10:13:49 AM »

Quote

MB, August 1998, pg 42, col 2, ¶2: A pleasant surprise resulted from my RB barrel (26"/,012" rifling/1:60" twist) with 100 grains FFg/Pyrodex Select. I was getting unique "S" shaped trajectory with a 430-gr T/C Maxi-Ball. Slug would drop at muzzle, be a little low at 25 yds, right on at 50 yds, a little high at 100 yds, with 1-1/2" groups at 100 yds.

Whoa! "S" shaped trajectory! :roll: give me a break. Sounds like someone doesn't know how to read a ballistics chart. How the hell does a bullet drop at the muzzle? don't take any advice from someone this wet behind the ears.

Longcruise · « **Reply #21 on:** May 08, 2004, 06:56:30 PM »

Quote

Were you intending to achieve muzzle velocities near the maximum for ML RB -- I would put this number near 2300 ft/sec, with the practical maximum being about 2200 ft/sec -- it is at these velocities that too rapid twist becomes a problem.

I'm surely not shooting .490 balls at those velocities :eek: Am a bit skeptical of those numbers as well. Not that I've gone out and tried to push them that fast. Suppose it's in the realm of possiblilty. Relying upon the general rule that the smaller the ball, the higher the max velocity attainable, then I'd venture that those might be working velocities for .32 or .36 cal guns. Once again, not that the .490 could not be pushed that fast, but those are probably not practical working velocities for a .50 cal gun. I've pushed .490 bals to 1950 fps from a tc Hawken 28 inch barrel with 1/48 twist using 110 grains of ffg goex. Accuracy was ok even to 100 yards if not spectacular. Certainly good enough for big game hunting.

Quote

1. RBs are forgiving of non-optimal twist.
2. Within reasonable parameters any normally available rate of twist will get the RB downrange accurately.
3. As your loads become larger, slower rates of twist will maintain accuracy more easily than quicker twists.
4. When you hover around theoretical maximum muzzle velocities, quick twists for RBs should -- should does not mean "carved in stone" -- yield significantly better accuracy with S L O W rates of twist.
5. Larger bore IDs require slower rates of twist for bullets' axial stability than smaller bores.

Whaddayah think, Longcruise? Can we agree on this?

Hmmm, pretty much but not absolutely :grin:

I think these five points are generally correct BUTnot necessaril;y for the same reasons that you seem to propose.

I don't subscribe to the old and trusted theory of the balls stripping the lands. I've never seen any evidence of this happening but cannot offer any evididence to directly contradict it. I'm quite sure it has never happened to me!

My slow twist guns do retain accuracy better than the fast twist guns when the velocities are pushed to near my chosen maximums [.50 cal at about 1800 and .54 at about 1850. I maintain these velocities simply for practical purposes in big game hunting for two reasons. 1. No matter how fast you start a round ball, when it gets to 100 yards or so the large ballistic differences observed at the muzzle are no longer that large. Results at 100 yards (my practical and self imposed RB limit) will be as satisfactory starting out at 1800 fps as they would be starting at 2000. 2. Round ball performance at extreme velocities (for a RB) is very poor when you are up close and personal with a large animal. The ball tends to flatten quite a bit and even though it retains nearly all of it's weight it takes on a wafer configuration that hurts penetration. The only round ball I ever recovered from an animal was a very fast moving .530 ball that hit an elk at about 35 yards broadside. It did it's job just fine but was very flat and on an angled shot it may not have gotten both lungs. The solution to taking down larger animals is not so much more speed, but larger caliber balls!

Man, I'm rambling way off the topic here. Sorry! :-)

Here, though, is my theory on why the faster twist guns lose accuracy more than the slow twist guns:

Think of a pitcher throwing a curve ball. the curved "trajectory" is attained by spinning the ball and the ball grabs the air which causes it to change course. I beleive the same thing happens with a spinning round ball. Faster it spins the more curve you get. Now, it should curve the same each time and not be noticeable BUT, not every shot is traveling at the same velocity. Varying velocity, varying impact points. :?

Quote

Regarding obduration aka windage, I have not examine spent RBs. I have examined patching. It has been my understanding that RBs are not intended to obdurate grooves when used with patching. The less RB upset, the better the accuracy.

The few balls I've picked up at the range that were still round showed no sign of obturation but since they weren't mine I don't know how they were loaded. A couple of my own shot with heavy loads clearly showed the weave of the patch imprinted in the ball but no sign of grooves. The balls hit hard in a dirt bank so they were flattened and there was no way to conclude anything about obturation. I don't think they obturate but that's just my opinion mostly based on listening to the more learned opinions of others

Naphtali · « **Reply #22 on:** May 09, 2004, 05:20:58 AM »

Longcruise: fascinating you should identify the Magnus Effect as a cause for inaccuracy. I knew it was the reason you cannot just jack up muzzle velocity to compensate for too slow a twist -- that is, axial rotation is too slow, so increasing velocity will increase axial rotation -- but I had not considered it could also be an important cause of more commonly occurring inaccuracy. That creative thinking, that's why we pay you the big bucks.
*****
Ramrod: I believe the "S" the author referred to was vertical stringing from a single point of aim. This would have nothing to do with ballistics charts. Rather he is, I believe, describing the parabolic curve of the bullet. At 25 yards bullet's trajectory has not yet risen to HIS SIGHTS' point of aim. At 50 yards bullet's trajectory has risen to point of aim. At 100 yards bullet is still on its upward side of curve.

If you can image indirect firing of artillery. The exaggerated parabola travelled by the shell is similar. In fact all projectiles that are unpowered travel in a parabolic curve.

And the drop from perfectly horizontal exit from rifle barrels takes exactly the same amount of time regardless of muzzle velocity. What this does not tell you is that the DISTANCE from the muzzle a projectile will travel before it hit the ground depends on muzzle velocity.

So to sum up:

1. All unpowered projectiles' travel along horizontal plane is shaped like an accelerating curve downward.

2. To compensate for the curve, you aim (or throw) or direct the curve upward. As the bullet path curves, it begins its travel below your point of aim, travelling upward to the point of aim, then downward until it hits the ground.

3. Higher bullet velocities cause the bullet to travel farther while remaining in its curving path. But the amount of time it takes, for example, a 100-pound lead weight to drop from a six-foot high table is exactly the same amount of time it will take a .490-inch RB travelling at 1900 ft/sec at the muzzle to fall six feet. Time to fall -- the same. Distance traveled until hitting ground -- different.

Ramrod · « **Reply #23 on:** May 09, 2004, 10:15:28 AM »

Naphtali, a bullet's parabolic curve is not the same as as "s", no matter where the impact on target. An "S" requres a change of direction, which was what was stated in the quote. I am VERY familiar, with external ballistics, by the way, and I know bullets don't rise in flight. NOR DO THEY DROP AT THE MUZZLE. This is what was stated and what I responded to.

Norseman · « **Reply #24 on:** May 09, 2004, 12:32:29 PM »

I very much appreciate the replies to my original question! Extremely interesting! Besides theories, scientific notation and mathematical theory (which by the way is very interesting), how about actual experiences with my aforementioned question that started this post? If I went into boolean algebra and digital logic theory, it might not make your experience tapping on the keyboard in front of you THAT much more enjoyable...unless of course your interest are mostly combining technical knowledge "lernt" from a book more than the actual experience?
My sport (shooting-most importanltly TRADITIONAL muzzle loaders), as I look at it, is to GET AWAY FROM and depart from such complexities as much as possible-LOL. I am sure we all can agree to that! So....how about fact, via trial and error vice getting toooooooo much technical? This interest we all have, deseeeerves this! The gentlemen of times passed that we are re-discovering did not have a scientific calculator they did it by blood and bone, trial and error. How about it. I say this with all due respect!

"Keep you powder dry boys"!

Ramrod · « **Reply #25 on:** May 09, 2004, 01:01:43 PM »

Norseman, You did change the question from .50 to .45 in the middle of the thread. The only thing I can tell you is a .45 with a 1/48 twist will get the job done, rifling depth is more important than twist for roundball, try 75 grains fffg to start if you get a gun with deep grooves, 60 or so if you get a shallow button groove barrell. I have shot up to 90 grains with good hunting accuracy. These are hunting loads, target would be about 1/3 less.

lostid · « **Reply #26 on:** May 09, 2004, 01:18:22 PM »

Hey all you "science" boys,,
I was walking in the woods today hunting morel. Too early yet,didn't find any.
After jumping 2 white-tail that just stood and looked at me till I asked what they were doing,,I noticed something,,,it was a bumble bee,,and it was flying!! Yup! darn thing hovered around a flower by my feet then flew off to another flower all of 10' away,,
wanna explain that one??

Ramrod · « **Reply #27 on:** May 09, 2004, 01:25:36 PM »

How exactly does one lose his ID?

lostid · « **Reply #28 on:** May 09, 2004, 04:12:23 PM »

I was rolled!! If I remember right she was a Brunette!

Longcruise · « **Reply #29 on:** May 10, 2004, 07:49:45 AM »

Quote

So....how about fact, via trial and error vice getting toooooooo much technical? This interest we all have, deseeeerves this! The gentlemen of times passed that we are re-discovering did not have a scientific calculator they did it by blood and bone, trial and error. How about it. I say this with all due respect!

Hey, who you calling a science boy?? I failed first year algebra.

Proud of it too!

If you like the gun and it comes in 1/48 then buy it. It will shoot round balls fast enough for a deer hunt and it will shoot with accuracy for targets and match and it will kill animals bigger than a deer if loaded with a 350 to 400 grain conical and it will stabilze the conical.

My non-science credentials (since my science creds are obviously of no value

):

I've killed deer with a 1/48 .50 loaded at 80 grains ffg with a round ball at 75 yards results were immediate retirement into the nether world. I've killed elk with the same .50 loaded with a 370 grain conical over only 70 grains of ffg at 130 yards. Same results as the deer. I have won my share of matches with the same rifle loaded with round balls over 70 grains of ffg.