White Rifles' "COST YOU YOUR LIFE" warranty?

[RandyWakeman]

If only this was some sort of sick joke; SADLY it is not. How could any White Dealer that is not morally bankrupt attempt to sell a muzzleloader under these conditions? How could any reputable firearms manufacturer, with any semblance of conscience be part and parcel of this type of one-sided scheme? How could any individual EVER personally resell a muzzleloader that was procured under these smarmy conditions?

The spectacular incompetence of this White dealer opens up with a amazing premise,"for some reason and won't release them without waivers from me and also the subsequent transferee." It would take less than the brains of a newt for an honest "dealer" not to immediately demand, "Why?"

Implied warranties of merchantability notwithstanding, the poor "customer" is required to apparently attempt to fraudulently sign away rights belonging to OTHERS, including not just a brother or sister, but those he may or not meet in the future. "This release extends to my spouse, my children and my siblings and anyone now or in the future who may rely upon me for support or care." This must break new legal ground-- has anyone ever given away your rights for you today? This is repugnant, disturbing, and demented-- in my opinion, and those of many others.

This insane "offer to buy" was sent to a valued contributor of this very forum.  Fortunately, this once-potential customer is neither void of his own wit or morals. In my opinion, this is the lowest form of snakey swindle possible in the world of inlines-- and is quite worthy of anyone's disdain. Greasy carnival operators of days gone by never looked so "reasonable" by comparison.

Names have been removed to protect the guilty.

>From: XXXXXXXXXX
>To: XXXXXXXXXXXX
>Subject: .410 G Series
>Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 08:09:11 -1000
>
>Hi XXXXXXXXX,
>
>
>
>I just got an email back from XXXXXXXX at White Rifles. XXXXXX ["the President"] had balked
>at giving me the rifles for some reason and won't release them without
>waivers from me and also the subsequent transferee. basically an "as is
>where is" release for warranty work, and a further release of liability for
>injury or harm from the buyer, his family, friends, siblings, employers,
>etc. The basic idea is as follows..
>
>
>
>I hereby release White Rifles, its subsidiaries and assigns of all
>liability
>for the purchase of  a used .410 caliber rifles that you currently have on
>hand and expected to be transferred to me in an "as is" condition with no
>warranty express or implied from White Rifles. This release extends to my
>spouse, my children and my siblings and anyone now or in the future who may
>rely upon me for support or care.
>
>
>
>I hereby also release with the same extension of terms, XXXXX and
>XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX, from any and all liability for the purchase of this used
>firearm as follows.
>
>
>
>This release recognizes that I bear full responsibility for the use and
>maintenance of said firearms and any injury that may arise out of their
>care, maintenance and use. Any subsequent transfer of said firearms will
>also transfer with a subsequent waiver of responsibility and release to
>White Rifles for said firearms from any transferee of said firearms from
>XXXXXXXXX or XXXXXXXXXX individually.
>
>
>
>Signed _____________________________________________     Date
>_______________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>Witness ____________________________________________
>____________________________________
>
>
>Printed name of Witness
>
>
>
>They may want to see two individual releases instead of one before they
>will
>give me the guns. Let me know if this is acceptable to you.

This is quite a sleazy switch from the "warranty" currently bragged of on White Rifles' website, inclusive of ALL White Rifles:

Press Releases

White Rifles Muzzleloader Warranty

White Rifles LLC Muzzleloader Warranty “The Very Best In The Business!”

August 18, 2003 – Orem, Utah. White Rifles LLC president Mr. Steven Brown announced the Limited Lifetime Warranty for all White Rifles LLC rifles, as well extending the warranty to all rifles made and manufactured by the White Shooting System, and Muzzleloading Technologies (MTI).

The warranty is for all original/registered owners of rifles purchased from authorized White Rifle dealers.
Mr. Steve Brown said, “I am very pleased that White Rifles LLC is able to place such an industry leading warranty for White Rifles made since the founding of the original White Rifles since the early 1990’s.”
The basic warranty statement is: If your WHITE muzzleloading firearm ever fails because of a manufacturing defect in material or workmanship, we will repair it without charge. Parts and labor are included. White will cover shipping & handling costs within ninety days of your purchase date from White or an authorized dealer. After ninety days, you must pay for the shipping to our shop. If it is a warranty situation, we will pay for the return shipping. If we are unable to repair your firearm, we will replace it with another or we will refund the original purchase price to you, less depreciation, at our option.
Mr. Brown stated, “…from a practical standpoint, we focus on the problem, rather than who manufactured it or where you purchased it. Normally, it is very clear cut if it is a warranty problem or a problem related to improper operation and maintenance. If you have a problem with your rifle, please call in. Our technical support staff will review your situation and let you now if your problem or situation falls into a warranty situation. Additionally, once the rifle is our shop, we will review the situation and confirm if it falls into a warranty or maintenance situation.”

It should give great cause for pause to learn that White Rifles apparently is so fabulously inept, they have no ability to tell whether or not one of their in-plant muzzleloaders is fit for sale and use or not, yet this shows it does not prevent them from still attempting to peddle their woesome wares.

Would YOU personally sign such a document?

[big6x6]

Someone would be a FOOL to sign such a document.  Sounds to me as if said rifle is inherently dangerous.  I've never signed any liability wavier  concerning ANY firearm, muzzleloading or otherwise, OR the work done on ANY firearm by ANY gunsmith.  I've never even HEARD of anyone being asked to sign such a document concerning the purchase of a firearm, muzzleloading or otherwise.  Certainly a slap in face to the once prospective customer.  

Something sounds fishy here.

[Underclocked]

"Ludicrous" is the only word that comes to mind.  We have arrived at the bottom of that tiny barrel and the pickin's are slim.  

One has to wonder how Doc White can remain associated with those that would come up with such a marvelous notion.  Surely no contract could hold a man under these circumstances.  ??   :bye:

[RandyWakeman]

It continues, in the case of yet another White owner that did have the misfortune of recently purchasing a brand new White rifle, shipped direct from White Rifles, LLC, that would not go "bang." It still won't.

>Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 19:56:09 -0500
>
>XXXXXXXX,
>
>I sent the action back to White for them to look at.  The plugger on the
>action seemed like it was dragging a little without the spring.  Last I
>heard, the spring was shorter than spec and they replaced it.  They are
>suppose to ship it back to me sometime.  Before shipping the action back, I
>did fix the action and now it will come out of the receiver like it is
>suppose to.
>
>White's customer service is terrible.  I spoke to them on the phone and
>they wanted the action back instead of sending a plug and spring.  I told
>them I was going to overnight it to them and they said they'd look at it
>right away and ship it right back.  I know it sat on there desk over a week
>before they looked at it and Friday they said it was repaired and would be
>shipped the next chance they got.
>
>I had planned on getting one of the shotguns from White but until they make
>some changes, I won't.  I may get the Knight shotgun instead.
>
>I may just be expecting to much with the service.  I do know how well
>Knight has treated me.  White is no where close to Knight.

[big6x6]

"I spoke to them on the phone and
>they wanted the action back instead of sending a plug and spring. I told
>them I was going to overnight it to them and they said they'd look at it
>right away and ship it right back. I know it sat on there desk over a week
>before they looked at it "

Randy...
Does this sound at ALL familiar to you?

[RandyWakeman]

Randy...
Does this sound at ALL familiar to you?

Sadly, yes. Except that your entire rifle ended up in the corner of their "room," not so much as looked at-- two months or so after the retail purchase of your brand new "will not go banger."

At least they are consistent? :shock:

[contendernut]

I'd tell Steve Brown right where he could stick the .410 along with the waiver.  

I do like the concept of the White System, but the White company has ruined that.

[WNY_Whitetailer]

How can such a company stay in business with practices like that...Or are practices like that the reason that this company stays in business?  YIKES   :shock:

[big6x6]

"are practices like that the reason that this company stays in business?"

I THINK you've hit the nail on the head!

QC issues seem to be the RULE, not the exception.  And when customer service can't take care of the QC issues expeditiously, you have a problem.

[RandyWakeman]

How can such a company stay in business with practices like that...

That, I suppose, is best left to the internment of merciful time.

The initials of sometimes "President," sometimes "Managing Partner" of White Rifles, LLC, are Steven Brown.

The White "dealer" who ponderously perpetuated the "Special Deal" (or real deal of your life?[/color]), and ostensibly had no ethical reservations about it whatsever was Tom Lodge of Sunrise Archery-- located in Hawaii. If you smoke enough of that stuff, I suppose the idea of a White Elephant Sale might suddenly manifest itself?

[Wolfhound]

The White "dealer" who ponderously perpetuated the "Special Deal" (or real deal of your life?), and ostensibly had no ethical reservations about it whatsever was Tom Lodge of Sunrise Archery-- located in Hawaii.

I'm not really surprised as he's the ONLY White dealer I've ever heard of. I won't buy a White because I don't believe they are current production plus I don't care for their customer service. It's all too likely that all the guns being sold are guns that were deemed not good enough to sell when they were in production. Combine the lack of customer service and selling guns that aren't made and you've got a problem. I'm not going to put down the premium prices the company sells them for without premium service and current production rifles. I actually was interested in White's at one time, but that was before I learned more about the company selling them. :oops:

[rattus58]

Well its typical of you Randy to go off without the full facts of the situation, and to misrepresent the situation.

As the PRIVATE EMAIL STATED that you feel necessary to publish for your own personal vendetta it seems, seems to spell it out quite clearly. They did not want to sell the gun. If you wanted the gun, you needed to sign this waiver. And this waiver, by the way is not a-typical.

[rattus58]

Oh one last thing that you forgot to mention Chuck/Randy that these guns were second hand guns, not new.

[Wolfhound]

Well its typical of you Randy to go off without the full facts of the situation, and to misrepresent the situation.

As the PRIVATE EMAIL STATED that you feel necessary to publish for your own personal vendetta it seems, seems to spell it out quite clearly. They did not want to sell the gun. If you wanted the gun, you needed to sign this waiver. And this waiver, by the way is not a-typical.

Oh one last thing that you forgot to mention Chuck/Randy that these guns were second hand guns, not new.

If the gun was used, why do they not require a waiver on all used guns? Why the special exeption in this case?

[rattus58]

Hi Wolfhound,

I'm sure they would. Waivers are not only common, most every attorney will tell you  that there are certain activities where you want people to sign a waiver.

Waivers such as these are commonplace. When one accepts responsibility for his own actions; ie: I want to go hunting on your land, I sign a waiver that says I accept all responsibility for my actions or injury and relieve you from suit from my family, my friends and my dog.

These are also common for skydivers, plane rides, parasail, hunting, tresspass leases, and the sale of used motorized equipment, such as planes, motorcycles, and every sort of homebuilt I can think of that I have seen change hands... and that has been dozens... all have this or similar language.

When was it that gun manufacturers found themselves free of frivolous lawsuit? This is not something unusual for a used gun to be sold under these conditions.

To make this out as something sensational, and to do it without all the facts as Randy and Chuck are doing, is typical of Randy, but surprising in Chucks case, but then, there are many here who are beginning to surprise me as to their character.

[big6x6]

"They did not want to sell the gun."

Ok then Tom..Why the heck did you go to the trouble of emailing me to offer to SELL it to me then?  No email of offering to sell the gun would have been the obvious solution.  No offer, no waiver.  Am I wrong?

"And this waiver, by the way is not a-typical."

The heck it isn't!  April 6, 2004 was the first waiver I was EVER asked to sign concerning the purchase of ANYTHING firearm/muzzleloader related.  When it comes to purchasing a MUZZLELOADER for Petes sake, yes sir, it is 100% ATYPICAL.

"Oh one last thing that you forgot to mention Chuck/Randy that these guns were second hand guns, not new."

I didn't think anyone said they WERE.  Even so, What difference does that make?  

"I'm sure they would"

Tom, Who is THEY?  Yourself and one other person?

"This is not something unusual for a used gun to be sold under these conditions."

In my twenty-three years of buying/selling new/used guns, it sure is unusual.  Let's see....My dad bought and sold new/use guns for 50 years without a waiver and my brother 38 years of buying/selling new/used guns without a waiver.  Yep, that's unusual all right!

"To make this out as something sensational, and to do it without all the facts as Randy and Chuck are doing"

Name ONE fact that has been left out... Just ONE, Tom.

"but surprising in Chucks case, but then, there are many here who are beginning to surprise me as to their character."

Well...Isn't THIS the kettle calling the pot black?

[RandyWakeman]

Rattus wrote:

>I hereby release White Rifles, its subsidiaries and assigns of all
>liability
>for the purchase of a used .410 caliber rifles that you currently have on
>hand and expected to be transferred to me in an "as is" condition with no
>warranty express or implied from White Rifles. This release extends to my
>spouse, my children and my siblings and anyone now or in the future who may
>rely upon me for support or care.


By what peculiar theory of law can one spirit away the legal rights of others by yourself-- by what authority can one diminish the future legal rights of your wife, children, employer-- "or, ANYONE NOW OR IN THE FUTURE . . ." Without their consent? Where?[/color]

It would be exceedingly difficult, in the case of one's future bride to be, as of now not even an acquaintance-- to get a signed waiver. As for facts, Rattus, if you would like ALL the facts to be published here, ALL in your OWN words, you can be accommodated. Is that what you wish, so all of your own words tell the full tale?

It is astonishing, and reprehensible, that ANY so-called "Muzzleloading Manufacturer" is seemingly INCAPABLE of examining their own product, and determining whether (or not) it is in absolutely fine, SAFE operating condition-- prior to sale.

Please, don't just cut it out-- CUT THEM UP!

Rattus now writes: This is not something unusual for a used gun to be sold under these conditions.

Unusual? It is unprecedented for any manufacturer to ask for this. Not, it is not just "usual"-- it is bizarre, insulting, weird, irresponsible, smarmy, and illegal-- according to at least three attorneys.

Many are aware that White Rifles, LLC, is based in Utah. It would be unusual for any competent attorney to ignore a unanimous ruling by the Utah Supreme Court:

A  recent Utah Supreme Court decision casts doubt on the enforceability of such contracts on minor children whose right to a jury trial would effectively be signed away by a parent or guardian. In 2001, the Utah justices considered the appeal of the parents of an 11-year-old girl who was injured while horseback riding in Utah in 1997. The girl's mother had signed a form releasing the company from liability in the case of an injury. The justices, however, ruled that parents do not have an inherent right to sign away a minor child's right to sue for damages if the child is injured during the activity.
    "A parent may act as a minor's conservator, not as a matter of right, but only when appointed by the court," wrote Justice Matthew B. Durrant in the court's unanimous opinion. "Moreover, state law and public policy favor protecting minors' rights when it comes to contracts," he wrote.

This is appertaining to a parent's ability to so much as waiver their minor children's rights. As for precedent of an individual wavering rights of ADULT non-signatories in a contract that states, "anyone now or in the future who may rely upon me for support or care"-- by what legal theory is this allowable?

I'm naturally asking this directly of Tom Lodge (Rattus58) and Sunrise Archery,  who presented this exact verbiage to be signed.

[rattus58]

To Chuck and Randy....

You both need to get some advice about waivers. They are extremely common ... especially in the fields I cited. That you are not familiar with them is unfortunate. You both seem to be the world travelers here.

As for Randy's legal expertise and to who can sign away what.. let me ask you... if its not legal or precedented... in your collective opinions "what's the problem boys?"

[Wolfhound]

Rattus58,
Here's the problem that I can see, why would a manufacturing company even sell used guns? No company I've ever heard of does. Randy's told me countless times that the test rifles he's recieved, the companies didn't want back because they couldn't sell em. The only companies that did want them back were Savage (to send to another tester-not for resale) and Remington.

(Note to Wolfhound-- none really "want" them back, they all prefer that any consigned guns are purchased. The larger ML companies already have plenty of "beater" guns. Randy.)

[RandyWakeman]

Far west of here resides a fine gentlemen, with a keen, inventive, inquisitive mind-- a man that has sold countless used muzzleloaders over the years, many of "White" manufacture-- regardless of the management at the specific time of their manufacture. This man has exhibited a relentless, longstanding passion for muzzleloading, and is a modern day icon of frontloading-- continuing to bring life to the effective, classic works of Whitworth and Rigby, and in so doing, simplifying their previous efforts in the process.

His personal knowledge of White muzzleloaders is vast, not surpassed by any-- and equalled by no one. Yet, in his many, many sales of used muzzleloaders now spanning decades, this man has never required a waiver-- he knows what he is selling, and is well capable of attesting to solid product. Though "functional elegance" is a keynote phrase of his, it also embodies his easily understood way of selling a used gun: "Seven day inspection period. Satisfaction guaranteed, or your money back."

This forthright, beloved figure, is owed a sincere salute of gratitude by any individual who has enjoyed hunting and shooting with a White designed rifle or pistol over the years. The name of this living legend, whose personal integrity easily exceeds all those around him, is no great secret.

His name is Doc White.


http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/prod04.htm