Author Topic: 45-70 Recoil reduction (Read 2137 times)

rmtaylor · « **on:** April 17, 2004, 02:13:38 AM »

I started my own new project on my Handi. I have a synthetic Handi with a storearm forearm and barrels in 45-70, 223, 270, and Huntsman 50 cal.
As I have been working up loads in the 45-70 the recoil is of course growing. Not real bad but enough to make you start to think about it as you pull the trigger at the range. In a hunting situation I am sure it would not be noticeable but at the range it kind of grows. I ordered and received a stock hole mercury recoil reducer. It weighs 16 ounces and is 5" long. I a tie wrapped it to the steel bar that is in the stock and added packing peanuts to wedge it all in place. I am now looking for some stick on wheel weights to put in the storearm. It should add about 1 1/2 lbs total and with the mercury I am hoping that it will take away the range sting. It will be next weekend before I will be able to shoot it and try it all out.

Richard

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #1 on:** April 17, 2004, 07:24:42 AM »

I think I must have a different kind of tolerance for recoil. I've loaded my 45-70 as high as starting Ruger loads and haven't thought it to be too awful bad. On the other hand, I shot about 30 hot loads out of my 357 Max last weekend and my shoulder was talking to me by the time I was done. I think it's the difference between the sharp recoil of the max and the heavy 'push' of the 45-70. I must tolerate the 'push' better. When I first got my BC I thought about getting one of the mercury reducers for it but now I think I would be better served with it in the max.

shoot safe,
Ian

Big Blue · « **Reply #2 on:** April 17, 2004, 01:23:54 PM »

Even using level 2 loads in my BC would really hammer my shoulder from the bench, but off hand was no problem. I think it's a matter of what angle you hold it at on the bench. I used a piece of 3/4" copper pipe, filled with lead in the stock. It took the recoil right out of it. It weighs around 11 1/2 LBS. now.
Don

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #3 on:** April 17, 2004, 04:30:32 PM »

I think it has something to do with the tightness of the bore in my 45 70 that makes the recoil so hard on mine. My theory is the tighter the bore the more friction it creates, thus its trying to push the barrell forword and takeing some of the recoil out of it. The loose bore would be more slippery and the recoil would be greater. Does any of this make sense to you guys?
I can shoot 20 rds through my 300 Wby. (180 grs. 3175 fps.) and not get beat up,and certainly not black and blue,but 20 rds. of the Rem. 300 gr.stuff will leave me black and blue and very sore. I also filled the stock with no. 8 shot ( it helped some ). Digger

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2004, 08:22:49 PM »

Guys:

Recoil is a strange beast at times..but as with shotguns...the fit is where it's at....It has to fit in the pocket and not out on the shoulder,and the stock should not slap you in the face. We get a-lot of the recoil transmitted up into our cheek when ever the trigger is pulled...having it padded sure helped on mine.

On my 1895 Marlin GS..I use a Uncle Mikes elastic shell holder and a very soft 1/2" thick piece of rubber insulating foam.When shooting super heavy loads from this the percieved recoil isn't near as bad as when I didn't have it on the stock...and the decelorator recoil pad helps a great deal as well. This thing was a beast before adding these two things and now it doesn't bother me at all.,even from the bench...

My new Verona O/U has a High Viz sorbathane recoil pad on it...and it totally rocks...I've put a box of 3" mags thru it and it works just like they advertise it to...so I think I'll try to find one of these that fit my Handi and my Marlin...that should tame them down even more...

Mac

WNY_Whitetailer · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2004, 09:27:07 AM »

The mercury recoil reducer took some of the "sock" out of the recoil on my 12GA Ultra Slugger...

safetysheriff · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2004, 11:14:57 AM »

Once again, this will open up a can of worms, because of how some people view escaping gases exiting the muzzle behind the bullet....but I still stand by this.....load the case full of the slowest powders, such as IMR 4831 or H 4831 and you will have such a low pressure that the velocity of the projectile and the pressure of the gases will be significantly reduced -- and recoil can't help but go down. The barrel time for the projectile will be increased, but the recoil should become more of a slower, longer push than a sharp jolt.

Try it; despite what else you might hear.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2004, 04:56:29 PM »

Safety I think I'll try the slower powders and see what happens. The thing that bother's me the most ,is that I can shoot 20 rd's. of factory 200 gr. 300 Wby. and not be sore, and anyone thats done that knows what that Wby. ammo can do . But this 45 70 is tearing me up,and the 280 Rem. barrel is a pure pleasure to shoot with even the hottest loads. Same stock,different barrel. Digger

Wlscott · « **Reply #8 on:** April 19, 2004, 05:41:27 AM »

Richard, where did you get the recoil reducer? What was the part # for it? Did it slide right into the stock bolt hole or did you have to do some modifications?

I've got one on the way and I'll probably want to do something about the kick from it :eek: .

JPH45 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 19, 2004, 11:56:54 AM »

Free recoil is a funtion of bullet weight, powder charge weight, velocity and weight of the gun. Add bullet weight, recoil increases. Add powder weight, recoil increases. Add velocity, recoil increases. Decrease gun weight, recoil increases.

Most mercury filled recoil reduces "imitate" the physics of an automatic, but anyone who has fired a recoil operated shotgun such as the Browning A-5 or Reimington 11-48's know that a gas operated gun is far more user friendly than the recoiling mass of the action/barrel alone.

In the end all we can do to tame recoil is add weight to the gun, reduce velocity, bullet weight aand powder charge weight. One cannot imagine the difference in recoil from a 405 grain bullet moving at 1200 fps pushed by 13-15 grains of Unique and the same bullet at the same velocity pushed my 30 or so grains of 3031. Those who advocate using heavy charges of slow powder to effect a felt reduction in recoil simply haven't shot a 45-70 using 405 grain bullets and powders like Unique or 2400.

For practice and plinking shooting I highly reccomend using 13 to 15 grains of Unique, rifle primers and a bullet weighing not more than 350 grains. These loads are quite pleasant to shoot, very accurate and give the shooter lots of comfortable trigger time with the rifle. Shooting of heavier loads designed with hunting in mind can be done in the month or so prior to hunting season and should be used from hunting positions like sitting and standing. Those positions not only mimick actual feild use of the load, they also allow the body to move with the recoil rather than having to absorb it as benchshooting requires.

There are several sites that offer ballicstic function calculators, recoil almost always being amoung them. Spend some time on one of these calculators playing with the variables of bullet weight, powder charge, velocity and gun weight to see what the real differences are load to load.
Try www.realguns.com or www.handloads.com

As to the Handi, the other best solution is to get a storearm/forearm for the survival model and fill the available spaces for spare shells with shot. It is easy to get a gun that weighs in the neighbor hood of 10.5 pounds with shot in both the butt stock and storearm. That is some significant recoil reduction. The shot can always be removed for carrying the gun afield as recoil will hardly ever be noticed when shooting at game. I also have a strong preference to the straight stock of the H&R shotguns rather than the pistol gripped stock of the Handi Rifle.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #10 on:** April 19, 2004, 12:18:47 PM »

Quote from: JPH45

. Those who advocate using heavy charges of slow powder to effect a felt reduction in recoil simply haven't shot a 45-70 using 405 grain bullets and powders like Unique or 2400.

The point of this exercise is to actually develop a load that will also reduce velocity, which someone missed in my last post. The reduced velocity of lead and gases will reduce recoil, even if the ejecta is somewhat increased. Energy/recoil energy is a function of velocity squared, not a straight linear function as is momentum, for example. The weight of the ejecta is a straight linear function, however.

Part of the advantage of the full charge of slow powder is getting the load density up there where cartridges generally perform more accurately, which is also part of the exercise. If the power is down but a good shooter can get accuracy out of his firearm then (s)he is still in the game. I'll take accuracy, at some reasonable loss in velocity, almost every time. :-)

rmtaylor · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2004, 12:24:10 PM »

Wlscott,

I got mine from the C&H:
www.mercuryrecoil.com

But do a search for "mercury recoil suppressor" and you will find other places.

I have a synthetic stock so there is no stock hole. Also the reason that I needed to add weight. But they make a model that will slide right into a wood stock hole. I don't know what size the stock hole is on a wood Handi.

Richard

tony212 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 19, 2004, 01:21:55 PM »

We made two recoil reducer this weekend, and both seemed to do the trick. The first was for a synthetic stocked Reminton 700. We took a 3/4" x6" black pipe nipple and epoxied one end. Then we filled it with #9 birdshot and epoxied the other end. It ended up being about 1 1/4 LBS. We put it in the Remington stock and held it in place with the little pieces of foam that come in boxes of Nosler bullets. It worked like a dream. The second one was for my wife's NEF partner shotgun. For that I used a 1/2"x6" black pipe nipple filled with #9 shot. It weighed about 3/4 LB and fit perfectly into the stock bolt hole. She fired a few shots to try it out and said it helped a lot.
Hope this helps
Tony212

Lone Star · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2004, 03:44:33 PM »

Quote

The point of this exercise is to actually develop a load that will also reduce velocity, which someone missed in my last post....

I don't think the point was missed at all - 12 grains of Unique gives a velocity of around 1100 fps with 400 grain cast, about 1000 fps with 400-grain jacketed, in my barrels anyway. A case full ( 55 grains ) of 4831 gives 1421 fps with 414-grain cast according to Waters Pet Loads, hardly a lower velocity load.

The recoil energy of the ejecta matters and can be a significant portion of recoil, but it is defined by the mass times the velocity squared. For "normal" sporting cartridges the velocity of the gas at the muzzle is between 4000 and 4500 fps ( Lyman ), but for our examples of Unique and 4831, who knows as both are pretty low pressure loads. My shoulder says that the Unique load recoils less. Unless we can measure the gas muzzle velocities for both loads, we can't calculate which recoils less, regardless of the "quick-and-dirty" recoil equations on amateur websites.

IME the 4831 loads can be more accurate ( powder position is critical with Unique ), but they are so messy that it isn't worth the bother to me.

Huntsman44 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 21, 2004, 03:36:19 AM »

I have tweaked my 450 Marlin until it can't get any better. The accuracy is better than I could have hoped for. And you should see what this baby does to a 160 hog. But this gun isn't a plinker for the range. 10 rounds out of this gun and you're ready to go home. I don't really want to add any more weight to the rifle with mercury or lead. Does Limbsaver make a recoil pad for the Handi's? And approximately what % of recoil would it reduce? Thanks, H44

safetysheriff · « **Reply #15 on:** April 21, 2004, 11:36:10 AM »

lonestar'
rmtaylor started this post by saying that he was working up loads. i'm guessing that means he is not going to be ordering a recoil suppressor, etc. for using milder loads powered by unique or 2400.

at this point my recommendation would be to look at the imr powder booklets to see how the .45-70 ( and some other popular calibers) can achieve reduced velocities/pressures with high load densities by using Slow powders. in other words, i'm speaking to jph45's remarks about cutting back propellant as one element of "all we can do" -- with which I disagree. It's a rather simplistic approach to a Great hobby to think that reducing the mass or volume of propellant is the only way to reduce velocity........and it's just not true. the imr booklet shows us other ways. and the imr booklet may allow us to develop some very accurate loads.

take care.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #16 on:** April 26, 2004, 10:56:58 PM »

I thought I'd revisit this to let you know I've had a change of heart. I've only shot cast boolits (325, 400, and 450gr) using Re7 and IMR-3031. They were fairly high up the chart as I said before and I didn't think the recoil was too bad.

This all changed yesterday. :eek: :shock:

I loaded up some 400gr JACKETED flat points with IMR-4198 that chronoed about 1700fps from the BC and after 5 shots I didn't want any more. This is after I filled a 3/4" piece of copper pipe with lead and put it in the stock hole.

I now have a new respect for those that bemoan the recoil of the 45-70. Little did I know that I was shooting wussie loads. :-)

Ian

DAP · « **Reply #17 on:** May 01, 2004, 04:07:55 PM »

I loaded my butt stock with #9 shot. The rifle is now heavy but as I only shoot at the range I don't mind the weight. The recoil is now bearable with the 45-70 and like a .22LR with the .223 barrel.

Big Blue · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2004, 04:42:32 PM »

I got myself a nice bruise on my shoulder after shooting about 15 rounds out of the BC today. I can shoot these loads all day from an off hand position, but put the gun on a bench, and they get real muley.
Don

rmtaylor · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2004, 11:39:55 AM »

It is the bench situation that made me want to do something. My main use will be deer hunting. Will be great for in close brush situations and will also take a deer at 200 yards +++. That is why I am working on loads with over 2000 fps velocity. I want to make sure that I will be able to make the one shot kill. That means that I have to shoot from the bench to get comfortable with the gun and the load and I don't want to flinch. It should be like a 20 ga slug gun and a 30-30 in the same gun.

Richard