Author Topic: Annealing (Read 1270 times)

bullet maker · « **on:** July 07, 2004, 03:25:14 AM »

Hi gang

My last post on the subject of annealing, didn`t get the response I was looking for. I should have asked the question, and will do so here, How many of you bullet swagers, anneal? and what is your method of annealing? What equipment do you use? etc. etc.

thanks
bullet maker

mirus · « **Reply #1 on:** July 07, 2004, 04:23:22 AM »

From your post I presume you are making bullet jackets out of copper tubing. Following instructions by Corbins, the jackets are annealed by placing them in a threaded iron pipe at both ends, closed with pipe caps, and put in a ceramic furnace which I happen to have at a temp of 1000 degrees or so for 30 minutes. The jackets do have some black scale, are quite soft, and clean up nicely in a case cleaner. Hope all this helps.

bullet maker · « **Reply #2 on:** July 07, 2004, 06:37:46 AM »

Hi mirus

That seems eazy enough, how many bullet jackets, can you get in the pipe? And how much did the ceramic furnace cost?

bullet maker

Rick Teal · « **Reply #3 on:** July 07, 2004, 12:23:00 PM »

I anneal when I make tubing jackets, but that whole process is such a pain in the butt that I do as little as possible.

I also anneal, the drawn gilding metal .22 jackets I use to make my bullet tips.

I use a propane torch as set out in Corbin's manuals. I've been trying to find a used heat treating furnace, but I've had no luck so far. I once saw some prices on ceramic furnaces, and as I recall, they were quite expensive as well.

Donna · « **Reply #4 on:** July 07, 2004, 11:21:26 PM »

Rick,

Do you anneal the tubing before you end round the end to form the start of the cup or after the tubing is formed into the cup?

Donna

Smokin7mm · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2004, 02:51:15 AM »

Here is how my buddy and I anneal 22 rimfire jackets: Place the cleaned jackets on a cookie sheet lined with aluminum foil and put in the oven (regular self cleaning kitchen oven). Set to "clean" mode. The temps that are obtained are much hotter than just the oven can get in bake mode. We leave the oven on for about 20 minutes and then turn the oven off. It will take a while for the oven to cool enough to unlock. Then tumble jackets to clean. It seems to work pretty well for the rimfire jackets but do not know how it would work for tubing jackets as they are much thicker. Might just take longer, you would just have to experiment. Something to try. Just do it while the wife is gone, she might think you are a little crazy. Mine already does. Hope this helps. Bret

Rick Teal · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2004, 04:03:45 PM »

Donna:

I do it just the way Dave told me to.

I end round, then anneal, then draw down and finally end flatten.

Even doing this, I would end up with the little folds in the corners of the jacket base. These not only looked bad, but I'm sure they would have a effect on accuracy as well. Butch Hairfields jackets don't have this problem.

Rick

bullet maker · « **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2004, 04:09:29 AM »

Hi Rick

Could it be that you jackets are too long for your punches. I had the same problem, until I shorted the jackets, however by doing so, I had to settle for a lighter bullet than I wanted. So I took my punches to my gunsmith friend and he made me some, better than the one`s I bought from the dealer, and they work great, I had him to make them 1/16 inch longer to work with the jacket length that I was trying to make, which was a 300 gr. bullet for my 444 Marlin.

bullet maker

talon · « **Reply #8 on:** July 09, 2004, 05:20:10 AM »

Butch's jackets aren't made from tube: different process. Doesn't Corbin Co now make an adjustable punch for end rounding? When you get individual end rounder punches from him he wants to know the weight of your finished bullet and jacket wall thickness so as to build the punch for that one particular bullet. Noticable folds at the heal could also be because of the type tubing being used, or it could be because of an incomplete anneal, or perhaps a second anneal is needed after reducing, particularly if you are going from a 3/8th" tube to a .358 caliber (.354" raw jacket).

Rick Teal · « **Reply #9 on:** July 09, 2004, 12:58:37 PM »

When I ordered my set-up, I told Dave the weight range of bullets I wanted to make, and I supplied him with samples of the tubing I planned to use. Some of the "finshed product" he sent back to me had folds in it as well.

Each of the punches supplied by him were marked with the length of the piece of tubing to be used with them, so I couldn't cut them all wrong, could I :? ? However, my set being for flat-based bullets meant I wasn't supplied with a separate end-flattening punch, but was required to use my core-seating punch. Maybe this could have been a factor.

I tried deeper and lesser anneals to see if the folds could be eliminated in that way, but I had no success. I think this is the norm with tubing jackets of this or greater thicknesses. If the tubing was thinner, it might have made thinner and less noticable folds.

talon · « **Reply #10 on:** July 09, 2004, 02:10:22 PM »

Rick, go to www.corbins.com/tubing.htm . While an end flattening punch is a normal component of a tube jacket maker set, there may have been a reason (?) you didn't get one. I make good jackets with my sets and, yes, occasionally get a crinkle or two in the heal/base area, but those are exceptions and 95% of the time they are very minor. ( I use .030 stiff walled tube) I anneal just before the end flattening step as doing it before the reduction risks having the punch open up the partially formed jacket end or reworking it enough to cause an addition anneal. (too, after the end flattening process sometimes the jacket has to go thru the JRD again as when it pops out of the CS die at that step it doesn't want to go back in.) Every time you 'work' a jacket it seems to add a little spring to it. Annealing deadens this spring somewhat. Also, I leave a small hole in the base of the jacket: trying to fill it up in the end rounding/end flattening process increases the 'folding' problem. The hole never exceed 1/7th of the base area. I guess I could drop a gas check or a copper disk in the bottom before adding the core if I planned to core bond. By the way, I use one of those small hand held propane cylinders with a push to ignite button and flame spreader, along with several of those Corbin "egg shell" bricks, for annealing. I'll only use the furnace (HTO-2) for annealing large diameter rod for solids, and heat treating new formed punchs

Donna · « **Reply #11 on:** July 09, 2004, 09:33:08 PM »

Hello Rick,

I was wondering if I sent you a PM with my address if you could mail me one of those tubing jackets with the fold in it so that I could check it out?

Donna

Rick Teal · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2004, 12:39:35 PM »

Donna:

I'll look around to see if I still have any on hand. I've been using Butch's jackets for over a year, so I can't remember if I have any samples laying around. I'll let you know if I find any.

Rick

talon · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2004, 08:42:30 AM »

Rick, concerning an " End Flattening " punch: until a few years ago the tube jacket kit came with a short length of stainless tool steel rod that fitted the jacket's interior. There was no EF punch. You were suppose to use a CS punch against that rod to flatten the jacket's end in the CS die. Were you using that rod when those folds occurred in the jacket's end?

Rick Teal · « **Reply #14 on:** July 14, 2004, 08:16:03 AM »

talon:

No that isn't the case with my set. I simply use the core seating punch as is.

My memory isn't what it once was, but I believe that the information provided when I ordered my equipment was that end flattening punches were always provided with rebated boattail sets, but depending on the set itself, an end flattening punch may or may not be provided with the jacket making set for flat based bullets, and if "not", the core seating punch was to be used. My guess is that an end flattening punch for my set would have the same diameter as my core seater.

Rick

talon · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2004, 03:57:19 AM »

Rick, It is possible that if you ordered the bullet swaging die set and the tube jacket set at the same time, and agreed that to reduce costs you'd take one punch that would double as a cs + ef, that what you have will work fine. However, if you ordered that tube jacket set at a later date, it seems odd that the cs punch you had for standard jackets would work in the much thicker walled tubing you'd be working with. Having said this, I still can't answer your question about why you are getting folds in the heal area of those tube jackets. I do know that there is different type tubing: this is discuss at some length in "Rediscover Swaging". I also know that Corbin recommends annealing the end of the tube blank that is to be rounded (but not the sides) to prevent cracking/improper folding during the round-over phase. I've never done this because my anneal is just before end flattening as that works for me. Maybe it's the type I use. Maybe it's the caliber, maybe its the length of tube blank compared to the length of round over punch I have... I'm sure each of these variables have some effect on how the tube reacts to the stress at being rounded over. The bottom line is that you can anneal before roundover, or just before end flattening, but not just before reduction (if you need to reduce the diameter), depending on the vertibles that tend to cause folding.

Rick Teal · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2004, 04:53:20 PM »

talon:

I did order both sets at the same time. It took Corbin quite a lot of work to develop the tools for making my tips, so he may very well have done it this way to save cost.

Since we started this thread, I reviewed the instructions that came with the jacket making set. I'm doing it exactly the way the instructions tell me to. My anneal does the whole cup, and not just the end.

My tubing is the standard type with .032 to .035 walls. Of course, it thickens when reduced.

Rick