Muzzle Brakes in Unlimited, Helpful or $ waisted?

[K2]

In Unlimited are the muzzle brakes useful or a waist of money?  I have read that they do nothing for accuracy and sometimes actually cause accuracy to decrease.  Are they an advantage?

[B_Koes]

Useful or a waste of money...well I suppose that all depends what you want the muzzle break for.  I've heard of cases where they can aid in accuracy but that was at ranges longer than 600 meters so it doesn't really play for silhouettes.  On the other hand I have heard where poorly designed brakes can adversely affect accuracy.  I would have to say that they are probably a slight negative in terms of accuracy on balance.  However if recoil reduction is what you're going for then they are extremely useful and that can lead to higher scores due to less flinching.  Advantage...probably not since there are plenty of cartridges that can easily do the job without creating a level of recoil that 99% of shooters would find objectionable.  Personally I find that muzzle blast is much harder to overcome when it relates to flinching.  I don't mind the pistol bucking in my hand, however, the muzzle blast is MUCH more disconcerting.

[IHMSAeditor]

If they were an aid to accuracy, would not the benchrest shooters use them?  The folks at Nesika believe they inhibit accuracy.

All I know is that I do not like shooting beside one!  :eek:

Steve

[Hammer47]

IHMO brakes are uned in IHMSA only to impede other shooters.  They are certainly a disruption to my concentration and I know many other IHMSA shooters feel the same way.  If you are not man enough to handle the recoil of your chosen chambering perhaps you should shoot a milder chambering.  I had the unenviable position shooting next to a brake equipped thumper at the 2002 Internationals and believe me, the experience was less than fun. The proof of the pudding is that brakes are a detriment to accuracy.  So why are they in use?  Not too hard to figure out...............GAMESMANSHIP.............pure and simple.  It's closely akin to the "supposed" help from shouting spotters .  I would be much in favor of not allowing verbal commands between shooter and spotter with only a pointer or laser pointer being allowed to sopt the shots.  Regards...g

[K2]

Hammer
At a regional I got sandwiched between two brake shooters on a line that was paked like sardines in a can!  I just closed my eyes and waited until they both shot, then opened my eyes and took my shot.  The blast from their cannons would actually move my gun!!  Using my method and a bunch of luck I finished very well taking a first in my class (AAA a the time) but will never forget the experience nor the ribbing.  I sure don't like to shoot next to them  

IHMO brakes are uned in IHMSA only to impede other shooters.  They are certainly a disruption to my concentration and I know many other IHMSA shooters feel the same way.  If you are not man enough to handle the recoil of your chosen chambering perhaps you should shoot a milder chambering.  I had the unenviable position shooting next to a brake equipped thumper at the 2002 Internationals and believe me, the experience was less than fun. The proof of the pudding is that brakes are a detriment to accuracy.  So why are they in use?  Not too hard to figure out...............GAMESMANSHIP.............pure and simple.  It's closely akin to the "supposed" help from shouting spotters .  I would be much in favor of not allowing verbal commands between shooter and spotter with only a pointer or laser pointer being allowed to sopt the shots.  Regards...g

[Smokin7mm]

This sounds like a brake bashing here to me.  I do shoot a couple of my unlimited guns with a brakes.  This first is a Rampro 6.5BR, it is a pleasure to shoot minimizing recoil jump allows for more concentration.  I have shot next to brakes of the same design as mine as well as others.  I don't find them that objectionable.  When the conditions get shoulder to shoulder I always double plug (plugs and muffs) this helps a lot.  I am sure the more effective the break the louder it is to the shooter next to you as the effectiveness is based on the amount and direction of the diverted gases.  I also have my US gun, a TC 7TCU with a break.  I had it installed because with the load I was using the scope would come back and bump my glasses and that was distracting.  Of course the muzzle blast (especially that close) would make me flinch.  I went to a puppy dawg load in this gun.  The break is not as effective with the milder load but the noise is also down and so is my flinching. This is a standing issue with me and recoil though.  Personally I feel if a person wants to put a break on a unlimited gun hey, thats what they call it unlimited for.  To say they are putting a break on their gun just so they can distract the shooter next to them, I hardly thinks so.  Come on guys, lets not look for excuses.  I have had worse blast from revolvers that spit powder with the blast from the barrel cylinder gap than a lot of breaks.  
Hey, I got it!!  We could a db meter and check each gun before each shooter went to the line to make sure it didn't make to much noise for the shooter next to him!!  
Flame shield on
Bret

[K2]

Hi Bret

No flames from me, brakes are legal.  When I double up on ear protection I sometimes can't hear the range commands.  I will not shoot right next to a Big Bore revolver shooter on a tightly packed line due to the blast for safety reasons without a plywood divider or something between us.  Noise is one thing but I truly was having my gun being physically moved by the brake blast, which did cause me to have to wait for my shot after they fired.  My method worked, but strictly from a competitive point of view you most likely would object if I lightly kicked your knee while you were aiming wouldn't you?  

This sounds like a brake bashing here to me.  I do shoot a couple of my unlimited guns with a brakes.  This first is a Rampro 6.5BR, it is a pleasure to shoot minimizing recoil jump allows for more concentration.  I have shot next to brakes of the same design as mine as well as others.  I don't find them that objectionable.  When the conditions get shoulder to shoulder I always double plug (plugs and muffs) this helps a lot.  I am sure the more effective the break the louder it is to the shooter next to you as the effectiveness is based on the amount and direction of the diverted gases.  I also have my US gun, a TC 7TCU with a break.  I had it installed because with the load I was using the scope would come back and bump my glasses and that was distracting.  Of course the muzzle blast (especially that close) would make me flinch.  I went to a puppy dawg load in this gun.  The break is not as effective with the milder load but the noise is also down and so is my flinching. This is a standing issue with me and recoil though.  Personally I feel if a person wants to put a break on a unlimited gun hey, thats what they call it unlimited for.  To say they are putting a break on their gun just so they can distract the shooter next to them, I hardly thinks so.  Come on guys, lets not look for excuses.  I have had worse blast from revolvers that spit powder with the blast from the barrel cylinder gap than a lot of breaks.  
Hey, I got it!!  We could a db meter and check each gun before each shooter went to the line to make sure it didn't make to much noise for the shooter next to him!!  
Flame shield on
Bret

[Smokin7mm]

Actually I was refering more to the comment of "Gamesmanship" implying that the only reason breaks are used is to hinder the shooters next to them.  I agree that some are loud but so is revolver blast.  If given the choice, of course you would prefer not shooting next to either.  Personally I find the revolver blast to be more irritable as powder and even bullet particles usually accompany it.  I like using the break on the unlimited gun as you don't have to death grip the gun to avoid the 90 degree rule and it allows for a consistant grip and also less hand fatigue when shooting.
Bret

[K2]

I do understand the desire for recoil reduction and its advantage in reducing fatigue.  Another way to reduce recoil in Unlimited would be to simply up the weight limit of the guns (allowing the Striker to compete as a side benefit) and eliminate the need for the brakes in the first place.  This would put the muzzle blast downrange where it belongs instead of up into the overhead covers or to the sides at other shooters.   Upping the weight by 50% would reduce recoil by a like percentage.  

Now this happening would be like finding snow cones in Hell so I am just thinking out loud.  

Bret beyond recoil reduction is there any other advantage to a brake?  

 

Actually I was refering more to the comment of "Gamesmanship" implying that the only reason breaks are used is to hinder the shooters next to them.  I agree that some are loud but so is revolver blast.  If given the choice, of course you would prefer not shooting next to either.  Personally I find the revolver blast to be more irritable as powder and even bullet particles usually accompany it.  I like using the break on the unlimited gun as you don't have to death grip the gun to avoid the 90 degree rule and it allows for a consistant grip and also less hand fatigue when shooting.
Bret

[B_Koes]

In a word...NO

[Smokin7mm]

I know of no other advantages other than they make the gun look really cool!!!  All kidding aside though I think they have their pro's and con's and the choice is up to the shooter and what he/she shoots best.
Bret

[K2]

In a word...NO

If recoil reduction is the only advantage and adding weight can get us to the same recoil reduction without bothering other shooters on the line, is it time (or way past time) to up the weight limit in Unlimited to 7 lbs or more and allow the Strikers, and Weatherby's (sp?) and others that are "overweight" into the game?  

Most of the bolt guns can group to less than 3/4 of 1" MOA so at this point we are closer to bench rest equipment than handguns in our Unlimited high tech guns.  Seems to me that keeping things more user friendly would have benefits.  While I would not be for a ban on brakes at this point (they are already in the game and it would surely P.O. someone who has spent the $ on one) heavier weight might be a way to slowly have the brakes go away over time.  

I think I read somewhere that somebody is building an U gun that is in .17 caliber using 115 gr. bullets and a 1 in 3 inch twist barrel.  Have we reached the point of maximum diminishing returns??

[Smokin7mm]

You can also get fatigue from trying to hold up the weight of a heavier gun.  I am sure there is a limit to what one could hold over a 40, 60, or 80 round match.  I know when I first started this game I used a 14 inch contender.  With the rear grip that puts all the weight cantelevering over the grip and over the course of a match contributed to more arm and hand fatigue than did a midgrip XP where the gun is more balanced.  This was even worse with the 22's due to the smaller bore diameter.  We could debate this issue to death but the fact is, it is a personal preference, it is in the rules, and you would just PO a whole lot of people shooting breaks if you tried to eliminate them.  Who would want to go spend additional money to remove something they paid to install.  They would probably just quit shooting and that is something we don't need.

[K2]

HI Smokin

I absolutely wouldn't ban brakes for those that are already using them.   Without an accuracy advantage, (why I asked in the first place) I won't be using one as recoil from the cartridges now in use in the IHMSA Big Bore Unlimited don't amount to that much anymore.  The .308's, 7mmIHMSA's etc. are pretty much history now.  The BR's and less just don't have all that much recoil in an Unlimited gun that is at weight limit.   With brakes not allowed in Production and the lower weight limit on the production guns recoil in Unlimited is actually considerably less than that experienced in Production.  The Production guns take the Rams so more power is obviously not needed in Unlimited so is there really a good reason for brakes anymore?  I don't see it.  However I still would not suggest they be banned for those that are already using them and need them for a real medical reason such as arthritis.  This could easily be taken care of under the Physically Challanged rules for any new shooters needing brakes.  

I do think with a higher weight limit the perceived "need" for brakes would be less and anything that would make the matches more pleasant for all would be a good thing.  

Weight in freestyle isn't that much of an issue as a lot of the weight is not being held by your hand only.  For Standing weight becomes a big issue fast, but not in freestyle.  Those shooting dead frog style could easily handle a 15 lb gun.  

Too bad that silencers are a class III device!

You can also get fatigue from trying to hold up the weight of a heavier gun.  I am sure there is a limit to what one could hold over a 40, 60, or 80 round match.  I know when I first started this game I used a 14 inch contender.  With the rear grip that puts all the weight cantelevering over the grip and over the course of a match contributed to more arm and hand fatigue than did a midgrip XP where the gun is more balanced.  This was even worse with the 22's due to the smaller bore diameter.  We could debate this issue to death but the fact is, it is a personal preference, it is in the rules, and you would just PO a whole lot of people shooting breaks if you tried to eliminate them.  Who would want to go spend additional money to remove something they paid to install.  They would probably just quit shooting and that is something we don't need.

[Scooter the Shooter]

I have muzzle brakes on two of my unlimited guns, a 7BR and a 6PPC. I think they are a great help for reducing recoil. Do they make the gun more accurate? I've seen one article that says they do and I've seen plenty of posts that say they don't. But if you look at the half scale results, it's the guns with brakes that are shooting the perfect scores. Pretty obvious that they don't subtract from the accuracy of a gun. I'll keep my brakes, thanks.

  Scott

[K2]

So the best scores are shot with brakes?   Is it the brake or the shooter?

I have muzzle brakes on two of my unlimited guns, a 7BR and a 6PPC. I think they are a great help for reducing recoil. Do they make the gun more accurate? I've seen one article that says they do and I've seen plenty of posts that say they don't. But if you look at the half scale results, it's the guns with brakes that are shooting the perfect scores. Pretty obvious that they don't subtract from the accuracy of a gun. I'll keep my brakes, thanks.

  Scott

[Scooter the Shooter]

Kelly,
   One compliments the other. Even a great shooter isn't going to shoot great scores with a gun that doesn't shoot good. My 7BR shot great without a brake, and I resisted getting one for a few years, dispite the fact that it would come back and knock me in the ribs with every shot. As soon as a brake was put on there, the groups were just as good, but I didn't have to think about the pain factor. If you don't personally want a brake, thats fine. But I saw a good improvement in my shooting after I started using one.

  Scott

[K2]

Scott there are just too many 40x40's to think we have an equipment problem.  The great shooters will shoot 40's anymore in Unlimited and UAS practically in their sleep on full scale big bore targets, and 1/2 scale has seen so many perfect scores that I am wondering when someone will propose 1/4 scale.

After the gun show this past weekend (we had a table promoting Silhouette) I have changed my mind about building a new Unlimited rig and will stay will the shorter guns.  We are doing a new shooter clinic next weekend and every one of the those who said they will come to learn more about Sihouette own guns that are 7 1/2 inches or less.  Most were interested in Small Bore or Field pistol.  The Contender owners that had super 14s, had them in monster calibers, the big JDJ's and such and only wanted to use them for hunting, they said they were not interested in target shooting.

The silhouette market here looks to be for straight wall normal handgun cartridges such as the .357 and 44's and for the .22lr.  The Wildcats got a big yawn.  AIR was an interest to many that liked the idea of being able to practice in the garage and shoot in a location other than our local shooting range (there are problems there with obnoxious machinegunners and people shooting rifles that are right at home in Africa hunting the big 5, but are much too big for Alaska).   The folks with kids loved the idea of both AIR and .22lr because they either do not reload or just don't have the time to do so.  A fully developed Field Pistol discipline looks like it will be a winner in terms of participation here, so I am going about makeing up the rules for this local match.  Shorter guns and .30 caliber or larger in straight wall only is what our locals are looking for so that is where we are heading it.  High tech is out, low tech seems to be "In" so I am going to lead where they seem to want to go.  There was an archery booth where people could shoot all sorts of bows.  I talked to the man that was running it and he told me that for the last few years the interest seemed to be running more towards the old recurves and even long bows over the techy compounds.  My youngest likes archery so I ate lunch while he stood in line to fling arrows.  While I was there the plain jane bows were used 3 to 1 over the high tech bows.  All were available to be used.  Now a half hour of observation on one day doesn't make this iron clad but I think the market is going low tech.  Time for me to start finding out.      

Kelly,
   One compliments the other. Even a great shooter isn't going to shoot great scores with a gun that doesn't shoot good. My 7BR shot great without a brake, and I resisted getting one for a few years, dispite the fact that it would come back and knock me in the ribs with every shot. As soon as a brake was put on there, the groups were just as good, but I didn't have to think about the pain factor. If you don't personally want a brake, thats fine. But I saw a good improvement in my shooting after I started using one.

  Scott

[Steve P]

I have brakes on several guns.  Have yet to see a brake ruin accuracy.  My Ruger or Contender in .30 carbine will blow you off the line a whole lot faster than any brake, yet no one has complained about either.  

It's just the nature of another beast.  Live with it, they are not going away.
Double plug your ears, wear safety glassess with blinders in the earpieces.  Adapt to the change.

Good shooting to all.

Steve  

[K2]

I like the logic Steve P, same one used by the kids with 500,000 watt stereos in their Honda's.  "Hey dude if you don't like it plug your ears!" Which is good logic for the soon to be deaf.    

There was a fellow with a 50 BMG on our range last weekend and he had the exact same attititude.  "If you cant stand gun noise don't go to a range."  The concussion from this mini "howitzer" could be felt through your whole body from 40 yards away!   Somehow I don't think a TC in .30 carbine is going to blow you off the line.        

I have brakes on several guns.  Have yet to see a brake ruin accuracy.  My Ruger or Contender in .30 carbine will blow you off the line a whole lot faster than any brake, yet no one has complained about either.  

My new group has decided that brakes are detrimental to match particpation, and that while they do not bother some, they do keep others from participating.  Since they are not an essential to good scores then why share your muzzle blast with your neighbor?  Muzzle blast should be going down range with the bullet.  

It's just the nature of another beast.  Live with it, they are not going away.
Double plug your ears, wear safety glassess with blinders in the earpieces.  Adapt to the change.

Good shooting to all.

Steve  

[Gun Zorro]

Muzzle brakes enable the competitor to shoot higher scores by reducing the shock of recoil and the fatigue associated with heavier guns. They do not hurt accuracy directly, if properly made and installed. All the top scorers in 1/2 Size and 500m handgun (including 500m 1/2 Size) fired their record setting scores with muzzle brakes on their Unlimited guns. Shooters involved in 500m competitions commonly have large cartridges like the .308, which they then also carry back to shoot 200m matches. To argue against installing a muzzle brake is just dumb (spelled "s-t-u-p-i-d"). It is the shooter's choice to NOT install a proper brake, but doing so is a self-imposed limitation. I'm 100% in favor or all my adversaries limiting their skill and scores voluntarily. Sorry I passed on this info -- it can only bite me in the A.S.S. (reference to my new silhouette organization -- American Silhouette Shooters -- "all ASS all the time"). Jim

[K2]

Hi Jim!

GZ I am not arguing against muzzle brakes in the sports where they are allowed, that indeed would be stupid.  I am suggesting that in a new game they not be there then no one would have a "Brake Advantage" over anyone else.  

You are probably not aware of the back to basics groundswell going on throughout the country but those who are know it is in fact real.  It is happening in private aviation with the ultra light movement.  In motorcycling the 50's style bikes are selling like crazy.  In Archery recurves are back in.  The new look T Bird is a hot seller as is the PT cruiser on the automotive front.  Even in school parents are wanting their children to actually be able to add and subtract without the use of a calculator

Sometimes simpler is better, depending on what the goal is  :wink:  

Muzzle brakes enable the competitor to shoot higher scores by reducing the shock of recoil and the fatigue associated with heavier guns. They do not hurt accuracy directly, if properly made and installed. All the top scorers in 1/2 Size and 500m handgun (including 500m 1/2 Size) fired their record setting scores with muzzle brakes on their Unlimited guns. Shooters involved in 500m competitions commonly have large cartridges like the .308, which they then also carry back to shoot 200m matches. To argue against installing a muzzle brake is just dumb (spelled "s-t-u-p-i-d"). It is the shooter's choice to NOT install a proper brake, but doing so is a self-imposed limitation. I'm 100% in favor or all my adversaries limiting their skill and scores voluntarily. Sorry I passed on this info -- it can only bite me in the A.S.S. (reference to my new silhouette organization -- American Silhouette Shooters -- "all ASS all the time"). Jim