Mauser Action suitablity?

[New Hampshire]

i've been wanting to do a build project for a while.  i've looked at everything from 1911s to ARs and Garands.  But one thing I keep looking at is a Hand built Mauser action.  I noticed Guns N Stuff has listed Mauser 98 VZ24 Actions available for $79.95.  I probably wont start this project for quite a while, but the price of this action seems pretty good.  So Im asking here if you folks think its worth getting it just to tuck away for when Im ready?  Here is the link, the actions are on the bottom of the page and to the left http://www.gunsnstuff.net/FAC/016.asp

Currently I don't know what caliber Im going to go with.  i've tossed around the 06 based cartridges and maybe the .308.  But I really like the sounds of a 6.5x55 Swede.  It would be used for hunting, but I would like something I can tinker with and make super accurate.  Since I already have a hunting weapon this project would stress accuracy number 1, then game killing ability.
Thanks for any help.
Brian M.

[Big Paulie]

I know that this is not what you want to hear, because I once had the "build a mauser" bug myself.

    However, taking all things into account, the absolute cheapest way in which to build a nice custom 98 mauser rifle is to buy a good used Interarms Mark X Mauser rifle, and start from there.  These rifles are made by CZ in what was Yugoslavia, on original mauser machinery and are excellent.  These can be found for as little as $300 if you just look around.  If you don't like the wooden stock, you can remove it and easily sell it for $80 to $100.

     Then, take this rifle and add whatever custom trigger, custom stock, and custom barrel on it that you want.  When you are done, you will have a safe, high quality 98 mauser rifle, that looks good and functions well.  If you have the new barrel blued before having it installed, then you won't even have to re-blue the action.

     If you start by just getting a cheap used military action, even from a good rifle like the VZ-24, I can absolutely promise you that you will spend far more money, lots and lots more time, and experience ten times more frustration than my suggested approach.  You should also absolutely have to have that action tested for safety by a compeent gunsmith, using a magnaflux or similar device, to be sure it is safe.

     Taking another avenue, the cheapest way in which to get a quality mauser in 6.5 Swede would be to buy a good Mililtary 6.5 Swede Model 38 Short Rifle (cavalry version),  install a cock on close kit and a Timney Trigger, have it drilled and tapped for a scope, and have the bolt bent down.  Drop-in wooden and synthetic stocks are readily available.  And then, you are good to go.

  Five years ago, Kimber use to sell these Swedes, in Ramline Stocks, with 22 inch barrels.  Even if you don't like the Kimber, it is still a very good place to start.

   Just some advice from someone who spent 2 years, and $2,000 on trying to get a custom 98 mauser made, and ended up with an unsatisfactory rifle.  Even if you are willing to pay a competent gunsmith for all of the work, you can count on having to send it back to him several times.

Best Regards,

Paul Amos

[New Hampshire]

Thank you very much, this is just the info I needed to know.  I wont rule out a Mauser based rifle completely, but I guess I can throw it back in to the pile of possibilities.
Brian M.

[gunnut69]

Well BigPaulie I really have to disagree here.  It is possible that a problem might require returning a rifle to a custom smith but I very seriously doubt it would require 2 years to rectify..  The expectations must be realistic but as long as you define what you are wanting before the work is done, and refrain from altering your wishes as the work progresses there is little reason for a rifle to need be returned.  Most are not!  If all you want is a minimalist sporter then there are pitfalls to be expected.  If what you want is a truly custom sporter then that too can be realised..  The methodology you described is not a true custom.  It is simply a sporterised mauser rifle.  Altering a commercial mauser is not a bad thing either but is not a true custom.  As for as cheap rifles go, no modified mauser can ever be really cheaply done.  It is always possible to buy an excellant used commercial rifle that will perform the required tasks and will be cheaper.  It will also retain that value much better.  The initial question asked if the actions(Vz24) were a good place to start a custom rifle.  The answer is, simply put, 'yes'.  Are there better, perhaps.  The Swedish small ring action are really nice but cannot compare to a 98 in strength or safety.  Some prefer the M70 or the Remington M700 or perhaps a Sako.. It sounds to me as if you've been badly treated in the past but that hardly makes the entire idea a bad one.  A custom rifle is not needed, it is 'wanted'.  It allows one to make a statement and have that statement in his hands.  These rifles range from the cheap chop job to the supremely elegant.  All have their place.  I'm sorry for your bad experience.. but the idea is still a sound one and the VZ (Bruno) is quite a good action..

[Mikey]

New Hampshire:  Wow, it sounds like Big Paulie has had some bad experiences with getting his custom mauser but his advice about going for a 6.5 Swede (your preference) and modifying a M38 is pretty solid.  

You will please note that I will not disagree with the gunnut69, but would like to add a few comments, having gone through the process myself with my Swede M38.

First is that the Interarms Mark X rifles are basically (as I understand it) Yugo 48/48A actions that are slightly shorter than the VZ-24s whioch are the full size mauser action.  Second, the VZ-24 is chambered for the 8mm, which has the same case head size as the 06 family, but that is smaller than the 6.5 Swede case head, so it's not an 'interchangeable' caliber with the VZ-24 action.

However, the only 'cock on opening' kits I know of for the M96/M38 Swedish Mausers do not always work and may give you major headaches.  In this regard it would be nicer to have a 98 Mauser action which cocks on opening already than to try to convert the 96 cock on closing action.  Also, the 98 action is stronger than the 96/38 actions.

With whatever action you decide on, you will need the bolt cut and welded - I would suggest getting a new, or straight bolt handle (and the VZ-24 already has one of those), because cutting and welding a 96/38 curved bolt never really gives me the clearance I like between bolt and scope for fast open handed bolt working.  Also, Bold Triggers make a very nice adjustable trigger for the mausers and come with an integral safety that allows you to remove the original mauser bolt safety.  And, Boyds has a whole bunch of stock designs at extremely reasonable prices that come either finished or semi-finished if you want to finish it yourself.  I ordered a Richards stock for my Swede and it took 6 months to get it and it was really overpriced.  I would recommend Boyds.

Of course, you will need the action drilled and tapped for a good scope.

If you decide to purchase a Swedish Mauser in its original military configuration, look for one that has a stock disc that indicates the barrel is a #1 - best of all barrels on those Swedes.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Big Paulie]

Dear Guys,

   Thanks for your opinions and experiences on the 98 project.  However, let me clarify my prior advice on this subject.

      There is absolutely nothing wrong with the VZ-24 Action, if you want to go the long route.  They are very high quality.

       Going the long route, and ending up with a beautiful functioning rifle, is very expensive and time consuming.  You also have to find a gunsmith who is willing to do it right, and this does take time, because these guys are generally backed up with 3 to 6 months of work ahead of you before they even begin to start.

       One of my main problems was that I wanted my rifle in .308 Winchester, which is my favorite round.  Unfortunately, as I learned, using these mauser actions (designed for a 30-06 length round) to feed a short round is trickey.  The angle of the the short round, as it is pushed into the chamber, is much steeper, and can give feeding problems.  Also, since the short rounds are sitting in a long magazine box, they tend to slide forward and backward in the box, and this can create an occassional jam as well.  Curing this requires welding a set of side rails inside the magazine box, to hold the shoulder of the short rounds so that they don't slide forward, or "blocking" the magazine by having a steel spacer welded into the front or back of the magazine box.  For feeding purposes, it is better to have the spacer placed in the front of the box, but when placed in the front, the top of the spacer has to have  a small ramp build on it, to help lift the round up towards the chamber a little.  If these things are not done, then the rifle with a short round will jam, maybe 1 out of 50 times. (That is too much for me. )     In addition, when all of this is done, it is possible that you may need to adjust the top lips of the magazine, depending on how the rounds end up hitting them.

     There is absolutely no question that a custom built mauser based on a military 98 action  is the very best rifle that you can have.  The question is whether it is worth paying $2,000 or more to have it done.  Lots of the money is soley for the purpose of drilling and tapping, adding an adjustable trigger, adding a suitable safety, adding a bolt shroud, bending down the bolt handle, adding iron sights, adding a commercial barrel,  filing and thinning down the trigger guard and cetain other bulky parts, and then rebluing everything.     The Interarms Mark X comes with all of this stuff already done, so unless you want to spend a fortune, it is hard from a money standpoint to justify the long route.  Best yet, if you pay $300 for the Mark X, and sell the stock for $100, then you have only paid $200 to have all of this as your starting point.    
 
Best Regards,

Big Paulie

[gunnut69]

Well on that BigPaulie and I agree.  There are cheaper ways to get a rifle that will fill your needs and it will have a higher recovery rate as far as money is concerned..  But, it is not custom.  It may have been altered, it may even be customized a bit but it's not a true custom.  It's not made to fit.  It won't have the features you specified..  it will do what needs be done... and it is most certainly cheaper..  Mikeys right about the Swedes.  they are great..  I've built several sporters on M96, shorting barrels, welding bolt handles(get a new handle it's usually better) and all the rest..  I prefer the Buehler safety conversion and the Timney triggers...that's just preference..  The cock on opening conversion is very reliable if done competantly although it's almost never as smooth as a good M98.  The trick is to alter the bolt by adding a cocking cam and to make that cam as long as possible, start the camming surface on the inside of the bolt.  End it on the outside of the bolt.. a tiny bit most say but it makes a large difference.  I build rifles and usually advise that they are money pits.. Still they are beautiful things and truly works of art..  that work!  If doing the work yourself the swedes are great places to begin..  The VZ24 is a good action, I may have to get a couple myself..  Good luck with whatever you choose to do!

[RaySendero]

i've been wanting to do a build project for a while.  i've looked at everything from 1911s to ARs and Garands.  But one thing I keep looking at is a Hand built Mauser action.  I noticed Guns N Stuff has listed Mauser 98 VZ24 Actions available for $79.95. .....

Thanks for any help.
Brian M.

Brian,

I purchased a 1939 VZ-24 with all intentions of building a custom rifle on the action.  However, I've was impressed with the performance of the 8x57 and the accuracy of the rifle I decide to sporterize it instead.  I've so far worked on trigger, polished the chamber and barrel, glass bedded the action, free-floated the barrel and reworked the stock.

I could have put a synthetic stock on it but original wood was pretty plus I like the history it some of the nicks/dents.  I've also got to really like the original straight bolt so plan on keeping it that way and put on a scout scope forward of the action.  I've saved a bunch plus had much more fun doing the work myself sporterizing it than if I let a gunsmith build the rifle.

If you think this type of project would interest you , check out www.samcoglobal.com for swedish mausers in 6.5x55, or find a VZ-24 in 8mm on the web.  www.auctionarms.com has them - See auction No. 5702381.

[Judson]

I was going to keep quiet but I won't.   You guys have all made alot of good points, however you have missed a few things.    Mark X mausers are a good deal as a starting point but they too need alot of work.    First they are rough and need alot of polishing to get the smoothness of lets say a 1909 for example.    Second the trigger is poor to say the least but all the after market triggers fit great so that is not much of a problem.    Third, the locking lugs have to be lapped, the action trued, and the feed ramp and rails cleaned up for smooth feeding, while you are at it polish the follower also.    Most of this stuff has to be done to a military 98 also so here there is no savings.   Good military actions do not require much internal polishing for smoothness so cost wise you mighe have alittle saving here on second thought.
   If you want to mount a scope you need to change safeties and go to somthing like a Mark ll or a Buehler.    As some of you mentioned the bolt handle has to be changed.    By the way I have had very good luck in this area by stretching the origional bolt handle and fordging it and reshaping it.
    As for turn around time 3 to 6 mo. is about right with about 1 to 2 mo. for building a custom out all those trips back to the gunsmith, I feel for you and resent people turning out work that puts the customer in that position.    At my shop, if you are not happy with the rifle I build for you then I eat it and you get your money back as for accuracy my rifles with proper ammo will shoot 1/2" or better at 100 yards.    Having a custom rifle built is expensive and a lot of thought goes into it but most of all it is somthing the customer should enjoy and find exciting.    It sounds as if some of you have been burned, I am sorry about that  and want you to know that not all of us in the custom gun business are like that.    
   If any of you have questions about custom guns please feel free to contact me, building custom rifles is how I make my living and I love talking about them.    Ask for Judson   #207-938-3595 or Email at theworkshop@tds.net

[Rogue Ram]

The cost of these sporterized Mausers depends on what you want done and how much homework you do yourself.

Go here and join the crew, and you'll find others who will help you do some of the work yourself and/or get you to someone who won't charge you an arm and a leg for any work you want done.

http://pub86.ezboard.com/fmilitaryfirearmrestorationcornerfrm1

RR

[gunnut69]

I would be a bunch more worried about quality of work than expense.  In the long haul the best I seen it put is 'the cost will be forgotten but the beauty will last forever'.  Also another small note, like the shuttle astronauts, it takes a brave man to sit on something with that much power(or put it up next to your face) knowing that it was built by the low bidder.

[Judson]

If you want cheep then get a factory rifle!!!!    The reason custom rifles cost what they do is that they are perfection in all aspects!!!    If this is not what you get then give the builder HELL because that is what you paid for.    A true custom rifle will not comprimise any thing in performance.   If you want gold filled engraving and all that stuff then you may not end up with a hunting rifle but a wall hanger.    A GOOD custom rifle will out handle, out shoot and in look better then any factory rifle.    If the factories were turning out guns like this then the price would be the same.
You get what you pay for and perfection is not cheep, there are alot of hours involved!

[turfman]

Judson.

Do you do your own stock work. Finding someone to shape and fit a good peice of wood is my hang up right now.

turfman

[gunnut69]

I started with working on guns by doing stock work.  I was way too poor to afford a gunsmith, even if one could be found in this area..  I bought a Remington 788 and refinished/bedded/altered the butt(added a rifle pad) and checkered the stock..  Let me tell you, checkering that sycamore stock was a real learning experience!!  Start with a cheaper stock and use it as a learning tool.  Practice on scrap of course but learn by doing.  You may never become a Jerry Fischer or Monte Kennedy but it will be yours.  If there's a stock maker in the area perhaps he'll give you a few tips.  Also there are several fine books available to get the novice off to a good start..  Then of course there's always here, a place to come and ask questions or whatever..

[turfman]

gunnut69.

I'm what you call a hammer/hacksaw type of guy. If you need your computer desk to go 100mph I can do it. Put a peice of wood or something delicate in front of me = disaster waiting to happen. But on the bright side; I like to pay people to put together my hairbrained ideas..

I have found alot of gunsmiths that can true the action, thread, chamber, crown, blue, etc.; then put the whole thing into a synthetic stock.

I don't care if the stock is a pre shaped or blank; I just want a nice peice of wood that is the style I want with the refinements I'm looking for.

turfman

[Judson]

Yes I do all my own stock work.   I start with a stock blank and work from there.    What I specialize in is building rifles, (and shot guns) to fit the shooter.    To do this I have to take into account not only physical measurements but also shooting habits.   Working from the blank gives me the most room for incorporating such things as cast, on or off, drop, grip size and numerous other things.    All work, both wood and metal is done by either my wife or me including checkering.    
    If any of you people are ever up this way please stop into the shop and I will be glad to show you how it is all done, answer your questions and let you try some of the rifles I have built.    Just call first to make sure I am going to be around.


                                               

[gunnut69]

Noticed the address,,  I knew and older gentleman from up in your neck of the woods, can't find the address right now but St.Albans sounds familiar.  He had more Winchester lever action parts than anyone I know..  Great gfentleman but deaf as a board..  I like the freedom of detail of working from a blank but do fine with a well designed preturned stock, assuming they've left a little to work with..  I have been looking for a duplicator that I can afford but is still accurate.  Then I can have the best of both worlds...   I always advise begibers to start with a pre-carved stock as the design work has pretty much been done and what's left are the refinements.  I really don't care for the metal work but do it as a way to get to the part I like, the wood..

[turfman]

I wish I was close any of you guys. There is a guy in Pa. that does very nice work but is backlogged for about 3+ yrs.

gunnut69. I don't know if it was this board or another; but there is a guy by the name of brooks that sells plans for a duplicator. I'm going to get the cd for my brother for his birthday. My brother is a custom bow maker and since he has a sizable workshop; I figure that'll give him more junk to play with.

I travel alot with my job and if I'm in the area of you guys, I'll definetly stop in.  Judson that might be soon since my wife wants to spent some time at boothbay in the late summer.

turfman

[Judson]

Boothbay is about an hour from here, I think, maby a bit more.    You are more then welcome but I will be on a hunting trip in late July to late August so call first.

[gunnut69]

turfman-  Always call first but your welcome to drop by.  Not a very imposing place here but I dearly love to talk with folks that like shooting and guns in general..  I am not real busy (other than the always pressing need to work in the shop MORE).. until some time in September and into October.  I and a friend are putting together another gunshow here locally on the 15-16.  Am located near Jefferson City and the shows located in a local K Of C hall..  They have a brand new building and it's beautiful... 10,000 square feet plus...  If your going to be close let me know and I'll arrange free passes for you and your party...

the gunnut69

[skippermdj]

New Hampshire - I think the answer depends on what exactly you mean by "project" and what you want to get out of the experience.

This is just my opinion, FWIW, but...

I've built two rifles on Vz24 actions so far.  I own a small lathe and milling machine, so I've been able to do most of the work myself.  The exception being forging down the bolt handles (wife won't allow acetylene in the attached garage/shop).  

As a learning experience, this has been great.  One gun is in a synthetic stock, the other wood.  It has been very enjoyable building the tooling and then trueing the action, lapping the bolt face and lugs, customizing the military triggerguard, installing a Buehler low safety and timney trigger, reaming the chamber, inletting the stock, mounting the scope, glass bedding, etc.

So if you have access to the tools and want the expeience of "doing it yourself", the Vz24 action has been great and you will learn a lot.

The costs of doing it yourself:
Action      $80
Barrel      $100  (for Adams&Bennet, Douglas & Shilen are closer to $150)
Safety      $10
Bolt          $30   (to have the handle forged to clear the scope)
Stock       $100  (for a decent synthetic or wood stock.  can be a LOT more)
Reamer    $50   (rental + shipping)
Gauges    $32    (can't cut the chamber without them, might as well buy)
Blueing    $30    (assumes you do the prep work)

Total     $432

Want a fancy stock, premium barrel,  Winchester-style safety, etc?  The sky's the limit.  

Also, although I built a lot of tooling myself, I still spent a couple of hundred $$ on the action wrench, scope mount drilling jig, special bits and cutters, and other supplies.  

If a gunsmith were to do this work at their standard shop rate, there would be a minimum of several hundred dollars labor on top of the materials, so you would be looking at about a $1,000 gun here even without a lot of fancy work.

For less money than you can do it yourself you can stop by WalMart and pick up a Rem700 or Weatherby Vanguard in the caliber of your choice and just go shooting.

If you want to pay a gunsmith to build you a custom gun, the price difference between a brand new action from Remington or Montana Rifleman or whoever will be lost in the total cost.  And the Mauser does have some accuracy drawbacks (flex at the stripper clip cutout, slow locktime) that the newer actions don't.

There are a lot of reasons to mess around with old Mausers.  They are cheap and easy to work on.  I get a lot of satisfaction out of punching small groups in paper and taking to the woods with a rifle I built myself.  But don't expect to "save" money.

Like I said, just my opinion.  Hope this provides a useful perspective.

[Judson]

As for Mauser accuracy, I have and have built many one hole three shot at 100 yards Mausers.    Yes the cut for the stripper clip and the coresponding cut for your thumb do allow for flex but that is where good inletting and bedding come into there own.    If the action is bedded true and flat there is no flex as the recoil is absobed by the recoil lug and the stock.    Mausers can shoot very well and in truth all two lug bolt actions are a take off on them.    As for lock time a 24 pound or higher rated spring takes care of most of that but you can get into shorting the firing pin fall which will really reduce lock time.    Bottom line is that the 98 Mauser is not perfection but with alittle tuning it beats out most of the current actions in reliability, function, and will rival or beat them in accuracy.    Other actions that fit into the Mauser class are the very under rated P-14 and P-17 actions Springfield 1903s run a second place at best.