New Trap Shooter w/lots of ?s

[ButlerFord45]

I have recently tried trap shooting and have found that I'm enjoying it quite a bit and expect to be at it for some time to come.  I've come to the Pro's for reloading advice.
I'm familiar with metallic reloading, I've been doing it for over three decades; however, my shot shell reloading has been limited to black powder 20 gauge for Cowboy Action shooting on a Lee Load All; so, while I understand the principles of shotshell reloading, my education ends here.
I'm using an old Remington 1100 and my needs won't be much more than 4-6 boxes per week.
Reloader: Am I going to need one that resizes, or a separate resizer?
Hulls:  Obviously I'm going to need a few reloadable hulls.  I've browsed this forum a bit and noticed that there seems to have been a change in Winchester AAs and their components aren't going together properly without some fiddling and tinkering with the press.  If I'm going to have to buy a case or two of shells anyway, may as well start with what I plan to use.  What Shells do you recommend to start with?
Manual:  Who has the best-for-the-buck reloading manual?
Powder:  I know nothing about shotshell powders, what works well and is easy to use?
Primers:  I know, check the manual, but is there a general preference?
Wads:  I've heard a lot of comments about "Claybuster"s, any experience or is quality of wad pretty much equal across the board?
Shot size:  Experience based preferences?
Choke: recommendations for starting?
Tips:  Any you care to share?

[Thomas Krupinski]

I'll go ahead and start off.  You can probably get by with a single stage press rather than a progressive with your stated production requirements, however that usually goes up.  But it is nice to have the single stage and a progressive.

Both MEC and Hornady make excellent presses (I have a few of both brands) and if you get one that has a sizing die, that does not mean you have to use it.  Just skip that station which is usually the one in the first station that you start off in.

Many trap and skeet ranges will sell you cases (usually in bags of 100) and I use both Remington STS and RXP as well as the Win AA.  They often will sell the other components at a very reasonable price, even better if you are a member.

For wads I like the Duster wads, blue for 1&1/8 and green for 1 ounce, they load the same recipes as the Winchester wads.

The shotshell manual that I really liked is the hard cover Hodgden one titled "Shotshell Data Manual".  Most of your other questions are covered pretty well in there.  Now that one only lists recipes for their powder but there is excellent current data online at both the Alliant and Duster websites.

[Graybeard]

Wow, Tom. I thought I was the only one with any old RXP hulls left. Or have they started making them again? Heck I even still have some old All American's left that are still barely useable.

Bill here are some of my comments:

Reloader: Am I going to need one that resizes, or a separate resizer?

Other than maybe the Lee Loaders they all pretty much size and deprime at same station. MEC is kinda the standard of them all in the single stage genre. It's all I've ever used. It is what I'd suggest you get. Either a Grabber or a Size Master 77 IF that is still made.

Hulls: Obviously I'm going to need a few reloadable hulls. I've browsed this forum a bit and noticed that there seems to have been a change in Winchester AAs and their components aren't going together properly without some fiddling and tinkering with the press. If I'm going to have to buy a case or two of shells anyway, may as well start with what I plan to use. What Shells do you recommend to start with?

I'm really out of touch on this one. I've used both RP and WW cases for 30+ years and still do. I have no real preference. I don't really like Federals tho, not even their top of line target cases. The real bargains are the RP black or field load green cases. Often available for well under 1/2 of what AAs and other such cost and will reload nearly as many times. But if you buy factory loads for the cases I'd get RP target loads.

Manual: Who has the best-for-the-buck reloading manual?

Lyman. Don't bother with anything else.


Powder: I know nothing about shotshell powders, what works well and is easy to use?

Unlike most I still use and actually prefer 700X for 12 ga. target loads. Works great for field loads with 1-1/8 oz. also. The various Clays powders seem to be all the rage these days tho. I've tried it and gone back to 700X.

Primers: I know, check the manual, but is there a general preference?

Really matters not that much. Buy what's available locally unless you're planning to order a case then get whatever you want. I've used more CCI than any and probably next in line is WW as that's what's found locally and I've been pleased. But I've used RP and Federal also with complete satisfaction.

Wads: I've heard a lot of comments about "Claybuster"s, any experience or is quality of wad pretty much equal across the board?

Yup I've found them to be fine except in 28 ga. where they won't fit AA hulls too welll. They are about as cheap as any. I use them and name brands also. If you use RP hulls RP or Claybuster either should do fine.

Shot size: Experience based preferences?

Are you shooting organized trap on a regulation trap range? If so #8 and #7-1/2 are the standards with 8s most common for shorter ranges and 7-1/2s mostly for handicap use. Some use #8-1/2s for 16 yards. For now just use #8s for everything.

Choke: recommendations for starting?

Again IF shooting regulation and no farther than 16 yard line a modified is fine. For longer distances most use either improved modified or full. Full makes hitting harder tho as the pattern is smaller and more center concentrated. IF from a hand thrower or similar and not a regulation range either IC or Mod is fine.

Tips: Any you care to share?

Have fun. Ask questions as needed. We're here to help.

GB

[Thomas Krupinski]

Bill, I think your right they are no longer in production.  However I have about a thousand or so of them around and I find them useful for load identification between the STS greens and the grey and red AA's.  Also use some of the blue Peters for the same purpose.

Too bad it's hard to find different colors in 20 gauge.

[fffffg]

i use modified choke,  8 rem sts lights.  for 16 yards.  be suer and pattern your gun at 40 yards and see if pattern is even, over 30 inch spread and on center.. if not raise comb so it does.. get second bead and know were to align it..  try aa NEW shells also..  when you can reload and get patterns as good as new shells then use that..  but until then buy loaded shells to learn and practice.. then you can reload the hulls..  balistics changes with reloads as crimps weaken, youl always get themost consitent results with new shells unless you count reloads..   realoading shot shells is easy.. reloadingn shot shells and shooting good scores is not..  for target shooting it is not about power and ounces of shot.. it is about patterns and putting the shot where the clay is.. and not haveing a bunch of holes in the pattern..  lwarn to shoot quickley so windyh days are not a probem.. youll run out of pattern with modified choke if you shoot after the bird is going down..  youl be into the next season paying for progressive press and componetnts  over buying your loaded shells..  reloading is fine but not nesseary for the beginner..  youl hear all day long at the club about they dont pattern they just shoot, and its you not the gun or the pattern,, i have to totally disagree with that..  when you can shoot one foot over, one foot under, and one foot to the left, one foot to the right of the clay and break it 90+ percent of the time,  then you know youve got a good pattern (modified choke, 8 shot 16 yards)   .. good luck dave....

[fffffg]

let me add,one foot below one foot under one foot right and one foot left that hits 90 jpercent of the time is a good pattern for a begginer, pros will wandt a tighter pattern and 100 percent.. whenyou start getting over 90 percent you cant adress that problem..  dave..

[ButlerFord45]

I thank ya'll for the start.  I guess further clarification is in order.  I'm shooting at a regulation range, as far as organized, well, I'm trying to help organize it as I learn the game.  I think we're doing pretty well, we had about 25 shooters last week and most seemed to be having a good time.  We've been shooting for, I think, 6 weeks, so it's starting to come around.  We aren't shooting "Registered Trap" yet but are working on it so most of the shooting we've done is from the sixteen yard line with money games  being played from the traphouse and the twentyseven yard line.
The reason for asking about sizing is because I'm using an autoloader and it was my understanding that to get reliable bolt closing the hulls needed to be resized.  Is that correct?  It sounds like the Mec 77 sizemaster might be the best route for me to go and yes, it is still being made.
I am glad to hear about the Lyman manual, I'm a big fan already, and is probably what I would have bought first anyway.  I may give the Hodgden a try, I'm a firm believer in at least two manuals but may reserve the second for the powder manufacturer I end up using.
The club is fairly small, so we haven't gotten "group buying power" yet, but with a little luck maybe we can change that.
I still don't know enough to ask intelligent questions, so if you'd like to volunteer anything, it would be most welcome.

[fffffg]

while your a young club get off to a good start and make the very simple rule...  NO SHOOTING AFTER YOUVE STARTED DRINKING!!..   once the boozers get used to shooting and drinking your in trouble.. you cant get it out of the system..  the club heads want the beer moneyk and  the drunks want to drink and shoot.. fights are not uncommon..  its against your insurance rules and you can loose your club if you do.. and the officers may be held responsible when an accident occurs.. if a 14 year old trap boy/girl  gets shot by  a drunk the parrents will want a lot more than insurance money..  sorry to bring up a morbid situation but it plauges clubs all over the country..and it just dont make any sence to alow it..   good luck dave.. (recoverd alcoholic)

[ButlerFord45]

5f, you make a good point about new shells, I guess I could use the reloaded in the back yard for practice, both loading as well as shooting until I become proficient at both.
Our club does not allow alcohol on the premises, never has, never will.  Alcohol and guns do not mix.
Thanks for the input, if you have anyother ideas for a new club/shooter, I'd love to hear them.

[ButlerFord45]

5f, you mentioned something I'd thought about before and had forgotten about, a second post, I can see the need.  Does anyone make them that will clip onto the rib to use till I can get one permantly installed?
As far as patterning the gun, I'm going to have to wait til the wife is out of the house so I can sneak her leftover wrapping paper, or is there something better???

[Graybeard]

Bill, any gunsmith can add a second bead for you on the rib of your current barrel or you can buy a Trap barrel for your gun. Longer is better in trap. I prefer 30" or 32" even on a pump or auto loader. For singles I much prefer the pump as it helps save hulls and ya don't have to bend over to pick them up. Especially important with a bum back like mine which is really acting up rat now as I type this. Sciatica again.

The old orginal MEC 600 JR was what I started on. Upgraded them to 700 Versamec's soon after than moved to the Size Master 77. Never seen any reason to change yet after likely a quarter million rounds down range.

BTW for a money game try one we used to play back when I owned my own skeet and trap range. We shot from 37 yards behind the trap machine. Five shots, high score takes all money. I used a Winchester Model 12 trap gun with fixed full choke and a special load I put together that pushed 1-1/8 oz of #8s to 1550 fps. Used a 1-1/4 oz wad to keep all shot from touching barrel. That is the ONLY combination that ever broke all five.

Just consider that before you even see the target it is already over 40 yards away and no matter how fast you are it will be at 50 yards by the time the shot catches up. Toughest shotgunning game I ever played and I've played a LOT of them for money.

GB

[Questor]

Butlerford:

I focus on the target. The beads shouldn't be used. I reload 20 gauge target loads. Here's what works for me...


Reloader: Am I going to need one that resizes, or a separate resizer?
I picked the MEC sizemaster. I liked it because it has a good automatic primer feed. It's not a progressive because we don't shoot in enough volume. I mounted it to a board and can put the press under my reloading bench when I'm not using it. It does not need to be secured to a bench like a metallic cartridge press.  The integral resizer is good.  I don't see why you might need a resizer. If I were regularly shooting 4-6 boxes per week I'd want a progressive.


Hulls:
AA hulls are very good and it's what I use. Remington makes some good ones too.  The key is to buy hulls that are designed to be reloaded.  It is a bad idea to reload the ones that aren't because the base wad can come out during firing and obstruct the bore.  AAs don't have a base wad, the base is cast plastic that's integral to the hull.  In any case, picking hulls+powder+primer+wad is a system, so get stuff that's readily available to you.  I buy a flat of 10 boxes, then reload them until they go bad, and then I buy another flat.

Manual: Who has the best-for-the-buck reloading manual?
Lyman. Buy it.

Powder: I know nothing about shotshell powders, what works well and is easy to use?
I use unique because I found a low-pressure target load that works well with the shot charges and primers and wads I used. This is for 20 gauge. I don't have a problem with it. It works well. There may be something better.  Red Dot seems to be a big favorite of 12guage trap shooters.

Primers: I know, check the manual, but is there a general preference?
I use the primers specified for the load that gave me the properties I wanted. They just happen to be Winchesters.

Wads: I've heard a lot of comments about "Claybuster"s, any experience or is quality of wad pretty much equal across the board?
I use Remington wads. Interestingly AA wads will not fit in my AA hulls because they are too long.  The Remington wads were, of course, specified in the load data.  That whole claybusters versus AA argument is too controversial. Some say to avoid the clones, others say they are just as good as the real thing. I don't shoot enough to worry about it, so I buy Remington RXP20s and have no problems.

Shot size: Experience based preferences?
7 1/2. One pellet will break a clay. Conventional wisdom says 8. 9s really do run out of gazoompah after about 30 yards or so.  In any case, use the magnum shot, which is harder, and does yield better patterns.  There's not that much difference between cost of chilled and magnum shot. If I were doing a lot of skeet shooting I'd probably use chilled to get a more rapid pattern expansion. International clays shooters use the hardest shot they can get, including the nickle plated kind.

Choke: recommendations for starting?
I use Modified. But only because IC/Mod is the way my gun is choked for hunting.  

Tips: Any you care to share?
I don't shoot trap in any serious way, it's just a fun pasttime with the kids. My buddy the trap shooter is really into it. He bought an expensive over-under that didn't fit him. It sits in the safe because he can't hit anything with it. He also uses heavier charges than necessary and it is having a bad effect on his shooting.  I have read that a lot of international trap shooters are shooting 12 gauge loads down to 7/8oz.  We use 7/8oz loads in our 20 gauges and it's OK. If I were shooting in a league I would want a 12 gauge.  A book called Wing and Clay Shooting Made Easy by Bob Knopf helped my son and I get the right attitude and training drill for successful shooting. It helped a lot. Do a google search for it. I think Cabelas sells it. It costs $20.  Take it easy and enjoy it. One of my favorite things to do is to turn my back to the range, the call for the bird, turn around, and shoot it.

Finally, I must say that I don't have a lot of respect for the game of trap because it's too easy.  I fail to see what skill is being developed by shooters who start from a premounted position shooting targets within a narrow course of fire.  Likewise for skeet. International trap: now there's a game of skill.  Skeet from a non-premounted position is a very good game, and one I value as good practice for bird shooting.
_________________

[fffffg]

the beads are  for reference, once youve moujnted the gun,and set your cheek,  , yes you dont see them especially if you shoot fast..  when you mount the gun the bead height variation betwwen the two will be different for center of pattttern in 16 and 26 yards if you want your pattern on center..  also two beads stops canting to even the slightest degree..  i knew a pretty good shooter that woould aim just over the house in doubles, say pull, and pull the trigger for the first target,  interesting,, ive never tried it but it worked for him, so when it comes to actually hitting the birds yould be on your own.  the fish and game will give seminars for you for free, teaching game shooting tequniques, saftey, dog handeling all kinds of stuff, contact them.. big companyies will have a picknic and shoot at your facitlity,great for getting new members,they love that stuff, and its cheap for them to make employess happy.. make sure you let them know about the no alcohol rule,one boo boo and your insurance is gone.. spring leagues are the bigest event here.. weather is getting nice, everyone wants outside and thier ready to get practiced up for fall..  store owners will give prizes for competitions.. get a frindly person on that and give thems lots of advertising when they do, i offered to b e the go between for gifts for  kids shoots once a year and the president said no.. theres no reason why not, huge companyies have money alloted to give away, it might as well be you,, always do this for kids shoots, its easy to get the prizes for kids ,a bike for first prize and theyll be comming out of the woodwork..  and the kids will appreaciate it,  and its our future..  here they have an actual physical education  class during school that they can sighn up for, and use club members old guns.. most will get thier own..  wish i could of done that when i was a kid.. if you dont have a kitchen sell a lease ( for a slight profit to you) to one of those roving kitchens to come out on big days so you can all  get some food.. this will keep those out shooting longer and youll all have a good time.. pot lucks at shooting events are the best food in town..  add  skeet range and  alow black powder shooters in, maybe in there own round if the other shooters dont like it.. and get a skeet setup as soon as possible.. if you can shoot trap and skeet, there is nothing safe in the swamp or field..   good luck dave..

[Catfish]

I`m also relitively new to trap shooting, I started in the 1960`s. From what I`ve learned since then is that, 1. 7/8 of an oz. of shot will break birtds as well as 1 1/8 oz. loads from the 16 yrd. line, and save you at lesat $.50 a box. 2. You don`t need fast shells. If your shooting ammo at 1350 vs. 1135 your lead will be 3 in. difference with a 45 % angle bird, save the recoil and the shoulder, load lighter. 3 Stay away from Lee loading equipment, there is a very good reason it is the cheapest on the market. 4. The cheap Rem. hulls load just like the high doller ones and last as long. If your going to buy loaded ammo to get hulls get the Rem Gun Clubs. 5. For trap 7 1/2 shot is all you need, year round, don`t get a bunch of different sizes. 5. For a starting press the Mec size master is as good as you can do. Use the sizer on all  hulls you have picked up on the range and for get it on those fired in your gun. 6. If your shooting a full choke gun a 1 oz. load will break them from the 27 yrd. line as well as the 1 1/8 oz. loads. 7. When you start shoting for the big money use all the shell you can, but for the 10 bied $5 and $3 dollar shoots you will come out money a head by loading lite.

[ButlerFord45]

Ok, so far:  I've picked up a flat plus a few boxes, they've all been reloaded four times and I'm keeping them as a group for equal number of reloads.  Going to pick up some once fired hulls, I have too few because I'm being forced to reload at inopertune times or not shoot at all.
I'm reloading on a MEC 77 with a universal charge bar, current load is 20 gr. Gren Dot, Claybuster 1118's and 1 1/8 oz. magnum 7 1/2.  It shoots to point of aim but there are some small holes in the pattern at distance.
How do you go about "tweaking" a load without first buying new/different components?  Adjust shot or powder first?  How much difference would changing the wad pressure make?
When I get behind or ahead of myself on an individual target and I know this is a missed target, I pull the trigger anyway, is this normal or do I need to see a shrink about "issues" I may have causing me to do this?

[Graybeard]

Sadly Bill, missing is normal even if you've been doing it all your life. You will some times pull that trigger even knowing you shouldn't. Yeah we all do it.

I'm not a believer in static pattern testing except for turkey hunting loads.

WHY you ask? Glad you asked. Buy the book by Bob Brister on Shotgunning the Art and Science I think it is called. Read his tests on static vs. moving targets. You'll fully understand.

But in a nutshell, what you see in a static pattern test has little to nothing to do with what happens when you shoot at a moving target. Think of it this way. You have a column of shot that is some "X" length long in the shell. As it moves down the barrel it can begin to lengthen. By the time it gets a few yards from your barrel it is not only spreading latterally but also getting longer. It continues to get longer until it falls to earth or hits a solid object.

So if the target is moving and so is the shot they don't all get to the target at the same time. BUT in a static pattern test the target isn't moving and so it makes you "THINK" your pattern is much denser than it is in reality on a wing shot.

So back to your basic question. If you change anything you MIGHT make a change in the pattern. Wad pressure is not likely to do much nor are any of the other factors you mention. What will is going from 7-1/2 to 8 shot. Fills in the gaps and on clays is still fine to most any shot distance you might take. I've cleanly broken targets using 1-1/8 oz of 8s when I was at the 37 yard line behind a regulation trap on my trap range back when I owned one. That's ten yards beyond the max handicap distance used in regulation games.

Or change your choke. With a choke tube equipped gun you can buy different tubes of same marked constriction and get different results or you can play around with altering one.

[ButlerFord45]

Well I loaded up 500 this afternoon with 8's and will give them a try for the next couple of weeks and will let you know how it goes.  Thanks for sticking with me through this.