Author Topic: Flame cutting at cylinder/bore? (Read 1245 times)

Will52100 · « **on:** May 13, 2004, 09:14:11 PM »

I was cleaning my 51'navy tonight and noticed a little file type mark on the cylinder pin at the cylinder bore juntion. I remember talking with a member and he told me about how you can get flame cutting on the top strap of revolvers using slow burning smokless powders. Well I never considered that as slow as a smokless can be black powder is a lot slower and hotter.

I went and checked the rest of my revolvers and noticed the same thing, they all had notches to verying degrees, the older more heavily shot the deeper the notch.

How can I prevent this, and if not how many shots/how deep a notch before cylinder pin replacement? I wonder about filling the notch with nickle or stainless braze, would nickle or stainless, or even hard face rod for that one spot, be signifently more wear resistant than the case harding of the cylinder pin, it would not be a major job.

Thanks,

Will

filmokentucky · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2004, 01:48:04 PM »

I just checked all of my revolvers and I can't find any trace of gas cutting or erosion on the cylinder arbor. Maybe what you are seeing is a mark made by the cylinder itself as it rotates?

HWooldridge · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2004, 01:59:00 PM »

How many shots did it take to get a noticeable mark and have you been able to measure a progressive growth rate? In other words, is it worth more to continue to shoot rather than try and fix it? Besides aesthetics, it would take a pretty good groove to create a notch that would break the rod. After reading your question, I went and looked at my original 1860 Army which has the back of the forcing cone worn off about 3/32". I'm estimating but the top of the pin at the front of the cylinder has a cut about 1/32 deep and 1/16 wide. This thing was shot so much that it wore out in several places but there is still plenty of meat on the pin.

If you do want to modify it, you might clamp it in a mill and cut a little slot that can be inserted with another metal or if you have access to a TIG welder, a spot of hard rod in the slot is a good idea. Braze will probably cut at a faster rate than the steel base metal but of course, it can be easily replaced periodically. I recall that you are a knifemaker so am sure you have the skill and equipment to polish that area to match the surrounding surface geometry.

Will52100 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2004, 05:31:30 PM »

Thanks, never really noticed it before, and at first thought it was a mill mark, but it's from gas escaping around the cylinder. The worst one is an old Pietta 1860 army that I'm refurbishing and was pretty much worn out. I don't know how many shots went through it, but the rifling is still good though the cylinder chambers were worn to where they would no longer shave a ring of lead from a 451 ball like they used to. The half moon grove was about 1/32" at the deepest, right in line with the bore. I would estimate no more than 3-4 thousand rounds through it, but that's just a guess.

I've got a relatively new 51 navy that has had some where on the order of 5-6 hundred rounds through it and the notch is only a couple thousands deep and about that in width, the only way I noticed it was because the notch is polished and the pin is case colored. I've got a 61 navy that has around 12-15 hundred rounds through it and it's about twice that depth, though only a little wider.

I should say that I've run a lot of ammo through them, at least 70-80 rounds a session, so they do get shot quite a bit.

I'll keep a watch and if it gets bad enough I'll do something, was thinking that since the area in front of the cylinder is rebated a piece of stainless heat treat foil wrapped around it would probably protect it for a couple hundred rounds if neccisary. I don't think it will be a problem for the foreseeable future, but have never heard anything about it before.

I suppose that if it takes on the order of say 20 thousand rounds to render it unsafe it'd be pretty cheap to simply replace the pin.

I only shoot black powder, until recently Goex, but have since switched to Graf's and Swiss.

wswisconsin · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2004, 07:51:23 PM »

I have a three year old blue steel Ruger Old Army. The top strap just above the cylinder/barrel gap has a gas-cut groove from about 8 pounds of Elephant FFFg powder. At the rate of gas-cutting, my ROA can take another 75 to 100 pounds of FFFg black powder before that area becomes too thin for my comfort.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2004, 04:45:54 PM »

The old original pistols were very soft steel and I have seen several worn plumb out but I wonder how many shots were actually fired in their lifetimes. I read an account of John Wesley Hardin where he had worn out several from shooting so I'm sure one man could do it. Hickok carried '51 Navies and he was killed in 1876. Assume he got his pistols as soon as they were available and that he never got a second pair. He was reputed to fire a complete cylinder every day so he could load fresh powder - that's 25 years at a minimum of 6 shots per day (and he probably fired more) or 54,750 thru one gun!

BTW, that's 156 lbs of powder and 626 lbs of lead through one pistol over 25 years - anyone think that can be done or did he own more than one pair in his lifetime?

Will52100 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2004, 06:06:04 PM »

Don't know if it's posible, but even though the metal back then wasn't that great, the colts used the best steel avaliable and the caseharding was a lot better, posibly deeper on the pins and frames. The replica's today are better than they used to be, but many of the older replicas were inferior.

My bet is that he had several differant 51's over the years as they were commonly avalible, not to mention he could send them off for repair while shooting anouther pair, and most towns had a gunsmith.

Then again it's possible he used one pair throughout. Though if he did I bet they were refurbished a number of times.

Would be interesting to know.

MOGorilla · « **Reply #7 on:** May 17, 2004, 02:10:47 AM »

I thought I saw one of Wild Bill's navies (in a picture) and the backstrap had his name and the year 1869. Not sure, but that would still make them 8 years old at the time of his death.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #8 on:** May 17, 2004, 02:24:08 AM »

I remember reading years ago that there was a possibility that Hickock
used a Colt's Dragoon to shoot Dave Tutt in his first gun fight. That would have been right after the Civil War. Given that it was a fairly long shot, seventy-five yards or so, I believe, the Dragoon makes more sense, as the Navy has lost a lot of it's penetrating ability at that range.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #9 on:** May 17, 2004, 01:42:38 PM »

"Guns of the Gunfighters" has an article and some pictures of Hickok and his irons. I think it's doubtful that he fired over 50,000 shots thru one pistol but you never know. Anyway, we got off the original thread of gas cutting - my fault...

filmokentucky · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2004, 04:36:14 PM »

It would be interesting to know how often the C&B revolvers were rebuilt. The Colt arbors are pretty hefty, but the Remingtons have much thinner ones, so if gas cutting was a problem, they'd be the first ones to need work. They're also easy to relace, though. I wonder if Colt kept records on repair and rebuilding after the fire--I think it was in 1864.
I looked my Walkers over carefully again today. Don't really know for sure how many rounds have gone thrugh them, but the arbors are unmarked. Both guns certainly have had hundreds of rounds--if not more---fired in them. One is a Uberti and the other is an early production "F" series Colt. Both are always fired with full loads---.457balls and 60 grains
of fffg--no wad. I lube the arbor and the chamber mouths with a fifty-fifty mix of beeswax and tallow. Maybe Colt and Uberti harden their arbors to a greater degree than some of the other makers?

Will52100 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 17, 2004, 05:33:18 PM »

It's posible, I've noticed the case hardening on Peitta guns is very soft. I've got a 51' navy uberti coming, and I'll keep a watch on it.

MOGorilla · « **Reply #12 on:** May 18, 2004, 02:05:17 AM »

I have a Pietta 1860 Army, that I would conservatively estimate has had 1500 rounds through it and it still looks brand new, nary a mark.

Will52100 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 18, 2004, 01:46:36 PM »

I wonder if the black powder itself is the problem? Untill recently I used only Goex in them because I could get it over the counter easily. Since the shop stoped carring black and I've had to order I've used Graf and Swiss and have noticed a big differance in fowling and ease of cleaning. Could the Goex be more abrasive?

filmokentucky · « **Reply #14 on:** May 18, 2004, 03:51:54 PM »

I use Goex and I have for a long while, simply because it is the only brand available locally and I'm not experiencing cutting problems. Rumor has it that the Swiss powder is a lot hotter, so you'd think it would be more apt to cut.
It may be a quality control issue rather than a brand issue. One part may get poorer heat treating than the the rest of the parts in the batch. I've mentioned this issue to some fellow C&B shooters but I haven't heard anything back yet. They collectively own pretty much all the brands ever made and all the models---Colts, Remington, Spiller and Burr, Whitney etc. And some of the guns were built from kits. They're all older guns with some serious use on them. Should be interesting.

1860 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 20, 2004, 12:44:09 PM »

I have an Uberti 1860army with over 6K through it and there is a very slight cut on the top of the pin. This gun has a very tight cylinder clearence and can easily go 100 shots with no binding of the cylinder. I also have a very old Pietta 58 Rem that has 3500+ rounds and it has a rather hefty cut in the pin, not enough to worry about but your finger nail will catch in it if you run it over it.

Many of the originals were not shot all that much, they were loaded and the cylinders covered with wax to keep out moisture and the guy just carried them until they need to be shot.

60

Shorty · « **Reply #16 on:** May 21, 2004, 10:55:57 AM »

Son-of-a-gun! My '51 Navy has a slight notch too! I never noticed it. I've been shooting it since '67, always with Goex. The notch is not even as deep as the "grease grooves".

Will52100 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2004, 09:03:38 AM »

What maker is your 51' Shorty? I used to shoot a Ubertia walker and never noticed any notching and it was always shot with full 60 grain charges.

I've got a Ubertia 51 navy on the way and am interested in how many shots it takes to notch the pin.

I noticed on the pieta's that I've got that the case harding is very soft, somewhere around 48 as a guess to the rockwell. Good caseharding should be around 58-60 rockwell.

Shorty · « **Reply #18 on:** May 24, 2004, 02:41:32 PM »

Will521200,
My '51 Navy is Navy Arms from Dixie gun Works. I'd guess that there was but one maker back then, but I don't know who it might have been. I'd guess that, although I've had it a long time, and shoot it only sporadically, it's had no more than a few hundred rounds through it. I always used a charge of 23 gr and round ball (that's what my flask throws). The cylinder pin is not case-harded.