Author Topic: Kimber vs. Others?  (Read 1587 times)

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Offline vwys67

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Kimber vs. Others?
« on: April 25, 2004, 04:29:47 PM »
I need to get a new 1911, I had a Springfield Mil-Spec, liked it, but decided to take a step up in performance. I was looking at the Kimber Custom II/TLE.  I've heard horror stories about the finish and Kimber's customer service. Any truth? Is the Kimber the way to go or should I go back to Springfield?

Offline BamBams

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2004, 04:49:17 PM »
Horror stories about their customer service?  I'd venture to say they are probably fabricated.

I've had nothing but the absolute best service from them -- time and time again -- over and over.  They are very down to earth, fast as heck, and often fix things for free that are out of warranty.  There is only one other company that I've done business with that has a turnaround time as fast as Kimber.
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Offline Questor

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2004, 04:17:29 AM »
Here's my opinion on Kimbers: If you want a great deal on a 1911, buy one. If you are looking at their high-end pistols, consider a Wilson or some other high-end maker. You will pay a few hundred dollars more, but the attention to detail will be there-- i.e., no creep in the trigger, etc.. In my case, I bought a Gold Match to shoot bullseye with, but in retrospect, I should have bought a dedicated bullseye gun instead.  It's a great gun, but I could have done much better by spending a few hundred more.
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Offline 1911WB

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Kimbers
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2004, 12:52:30 PM »
I've had three series I Kimbers, two 4"s & a GM. All have been good pistols. Actually, the 4''s have been more accurate than the GM, although the GM has the best trigger. Except for replacing the MIM parts by personal preference none of them has any reliability issues. So I guess I would have to say that for the money Kimber is hard to beat. But I would be somewhat leary of the series II Kimbers from a lot of posts I've read on gun forums. The other choice would be to buy a SA "loaded" model and get a trigger job (they come cheap). You'd still be dollars ahead of a Kimber purchase.  :D
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Offline BamBams

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2004, 05:53:14 PM »
Quote from: Questor
In my case, I bought a Gold Match to shoot bullseye with, but in retrospect, I should have bought a dedicated bullseye gun instead.  It's a great gun, but I could have done much better by spending a few hundred more.


Exactly right.  The GM is a good gun out of the box, but for those of us with demanding (ie competition) criteria in a 1911, it still requires some improvement.  I am getting to where I now rate production 1911s as "Loose, Looser, Loosest, etc.  *smiles*  I still think, generally speaking, pound for pound, that Kimbers are tighter than Springfields, and way tighter than the new Colts.  I just don't understand what is up with Colt.  They have some pretty stiff competition out there, but they don't seem able to get their acts together on quality control.  I have to guess they're having serious morale issues in that factory or something. It's really a pity.

In my case, I opted to gut out most of the internals and replace them with higher quality, and better fitted, components.  I am referring to the hammer, sear, firing pin stop, safety, barrel bushing, barrel link, springs, main spring housing, etc.  I hung on to the stock disconnector (why I am not sure) and the premium trigger truly is one. I think I've probably spent about $350 or so getting it up to my standards for a "shooter."  Now that I think about it even harder, the only stock parts on my GM are the barrel, frame, slide, grip bushings, disconnector (soon to go)....laughing.  I am also somebody who wishes the "MIM" process would just die a slow death in pistol manufacturing -- period.

As I attempt to recall things about my Gold Match for this post.  I remember finding that my slide stop pin was ".199 (not bad) but there was still ".005 free play going through the barrel link.  I measured out the link and also found it to be ".276 --which is ".002 below spec. No wonder there was zero wear on my barrel lugs and slide recesses!   Changing to a Wilson ".278 was a big improvement in lock up.  Oh, the barrel and slide were matched up perfectly -- it was just too bad they barely made any contact on lock up!  *smiles*

Speaking of the barrel.  I couldn't be more pleased.  It is chambered well, and I'd rate it "excellent."  Machining on the slide -- also top notch although the breech face needed polishing.

My barrel bushing OD was also out of spec (too loose) so I swapped it out for an EGM bushing.  I could have banged the crap out of it and tightened it up, but I thought I'd do better with better quality. BIG improvement in accuracy there.

Slide to frame had ".001 free play - perfect for me.  I just stuff in some Brian Enos' "Slide-Glide" and it's smooth as glass and tighter than Rosie in an inner tube.

The extractor was about 3lbs too loose.  I adjusted and polished that, and bought a spare Wilson just in case.

Firing pin stop was "MIM."  A "very" bad place for "MIM," so that got replaced and polished.

Ambi-Safety was a cheapo (MIM again) McCormick and not properly fitted either.  I've seen and heard of those breaking, so that was swapped out for a wide, ambi Ed Brown.

Guide rod and bushing were excellent, however, as a rapid fire shooter, I am a big fan of Tungsten Carbide on both of those, and they got swapped.  Just makes it easier for me to follow my front sight during recoil.

Adjustable sights were fantastic -- and very tough, but I had to have tritium, so I swapped for a bar-bot Meprolight.  Same exact sights, except they glows at night.

Mag well was beveled just great, but I needed a bigger one -- so on went the S&A magwell.  Of course that also meant a change in grips.

MIM hammer & sear - YUCK!  Cylinder and Slide's "Tactical II" for me please!  I'm at about a 2 1/2 - 2 3/4lb pull - clean and breaks like glass after I got "Jiggy wit it."  

Did I mention the stock trigger is great?  Yup!  Problem there was too much "take up" though.  Took quite a few hours, but I adjusted those flipper things until it finally felt good to me -- about 1/16" take up now.  Too little for panic shooters I'd imagine, but I can handle it.

Now this is sure to shock you.  Last year, I was shooting the standard H&G #68 over 4.7g of Bullseye (yes, I'm old fashioned) and doing it reliably with a 20lb, variable rate Wolff recoil spring. I've never used a lighter spring yet, and ALL my loads feed and eject perfectly.  I am now a believer in variable rate springs -- this makes me a Judas among my peers, but what works for me, works for me.

The plastic MSH is pure crap if ya asks me.  Plastic on a 1911?  This is supposed to be a workhorse - I just don't get it?

Oh yeah, I also changed out the mag release for a Nowlin.  The reason was simple - not a place for MIM, and definitely not a place for a torx screw either.

Nevertheless, I've still done alright with the GM.  I paid about $700 for it (used) from a Texas police officer who only put about 200 rounds through it.  For about $1100-$1200, I've got a pistol that can shoot 3/4" at 25 yards from a Ransom Rest using 200g SWCs.

Now for those of you who don't understand any of this, I want to say one thing.  BEFORE I changed anything, this pistol would shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards -- which is EXCELLENT for a production pistol.  My changes were made primarily to beef up the pistol, make it more reliable and longer lasting, and suit it to MY preferences and needs.  If you see the quality of what else is out there in "production" 1911s under $1300, the Kimber is a great deal - right outta da box.
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Offline williamlayton

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2004, 01:15:50 AM »
Bambams-
I enjoy your post.
Do you shoot games, ie idpa,ect? If so what do you shoot.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline BamBams

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2004, 04:22:08 AM »
Glad you enjoyed the post.

I shot  IPSC for quite a few years, and more recently I've been shooting IDPA.  It's become my one and only "hobby." -- well, maybe? *smiles*
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Offline 1911WB

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Kimber GM
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2004, 06:40:34 AM »
I too enjoyed your post, Bam Bams. I haven't done quite as much as u have to my GM. I replaced the FLGR with a standard set-up (personal preference). I replaced the MIM slide stop with an old Colt one, the extractor with a Wilson, barrel bushing with a Brown (not too happy with that fit). Haven't done anything with the hammer/sear cause the trigger pull is already great for me. I still need to replace the thumb safety with a Brown or Wilson. Overall though, I'm just not real pleased with the accuracy- it's okay, but I could get about the same with any stock Colt or SA. My Baer shoots rings around it! Even my Kimber CDP (4") can about equal the accuracy of the GM. I guess I just expect more accuracy from a $1000 pistol.  :(
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Offline BamBams

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2004, 03:01:59 PM »
There's always a reason.   The bushing I use is Brownell's part #296-410-110.

It came highly recommended.  The fit was very tight on both sides. I had to lap/polish it a little bit, otherwise it was pretty darn close to a tap in fit.  You "may" be getting some "spring-back" on the barrel with that new bushing?

Have you checked your barrel lock-up?  That was a culprit on mine.  For some weird reason, Kimber's barrel link was a little on the short side.

Anyways, those are just some things I'd look at if it was mine.

One way to look at that GM is that you've got really great raw material to tinker around with.  If you spend the time and a few bucks more, I'm pretty sure it could be made to please you greatly! *smiles*
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Offline 1911WB

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Kimber GM
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2004, 06:06:44 PM »
Bam Bams, thanks for the info & tips. Think I will do some more work on the GM before giving up on it. BTW do u belong to Pueblo West Sportsmen's Club. It's now a long way for me, but I still belong; it's a great facility. Also, what gun shop are u affiliated with? I'd like to stop in sometime. Regards,    WB
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Offline vwys67

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Thans for the Help
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2004, 08:43:51 PM »
Thanks to everyone who gave me their opinion on Kimber's and their experience with them.  I guess I should thank Bam Bam because I really wanted to know what  people did to make their guns bullseye guns, that was real relevant to my question. If anyone is interested I found a page about a Kimber finish/customer service complaint that sparked my question. Here is the link http://www.thesqueakywheel.com/complaints/complaint3014.cfm
Thanks again.

Offline BamBams

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Re: Kimber GM
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2004, 03:54:09 AM »
Quote from: 1911WB
Bam Bams, thanks for the info & tips. Think I will do some more work on the GM before giving up on it. BTW do u belong to Pueblo West Sportsmen's Club. It's now a long way for me, but I still belong; it's a great facility. Also, what gun shop are u affiliated with? I'd like to stop in sometime. Regards,    WB


Nope, I'm not a member, but I shoot there.  It is a nice place indeed.  I'll also go down to Cactus Flats occasionally to practice with my friends in the "pits."  The gal who runs the place is very nice to deal with.  

The gun shop is "Paradise Sales" in Colorado Springs.  It's been there for about 20 years.  Stop by and see us anytime -- we're open 10-6, Monday through Saturday.   There is always plenty of coffee.  My hours do vary a lot, so call ahead to see when I'll be around.  Just ask if Emmett is around, or when he will be.  *smiles*
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Offline BamBams

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Re: Thans for the Help
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2004, 03:58:00 AM »
Quote from: vwys67
Thanks to everyone who gave me their opinion on Kimber's and their experience with them.  I guess I should thank Bam Bam because I really wanted to know what  people did to make their guns bullseye guns, that was real relevant to my question. If anyone is interested I found a page about a Kimber finish/customer service complaint that sparked my question. Here is the link http://www.thesqueakywheel.com/complaints/complaint3014.cfm
Thanks again.


I read the complaint.  I can't help but get the feeling there is more to this than currently meets the eye.  If we wanted to be fair, we ought to hear Dennis' side to this story.  I can believe the part about him being rude though.  Dennis doesn't seem like the kind of person who takes any crap from anybody,  but most gunsmiths I've met are kina like that. He's always done a great job for me, so that's all I can go by.  Who knows?

In the complaint, the guy says,

"Update again- after 2 months and 200 rounds, the "new replacement barrel" they installed is rusting at the muzzle and the barrel hood where ".45 ACP" is stamped. That barrel is SUPPOSED to be "stainless steel", and it's rusting... we just can't win with this thing..."

I guess he doesn't oil his guns?  Stainless WILL rust.  In fact, the Kimber I've got right now had some minor rust on the frame when I got it from the guy in Texas.  Fortunately, I was able to get rid of it, and I've never generated any new rust through NEGLECT.  Is it just me, or does this guy seem a bit "off"?
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Offline TScottO

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2004, 01:20:58 PM »
I picked up a used Kimber Pro Carry the other day. This one has the aluminum frame, but oh well. Figure I'd give Kimber a shot with a used market gun. Comparing the Kimber to my full size series 80, the colt could be used for a trotline sinker. I also had to put more money into my colt to make it run properly but its accuracy still isn't good enough for any practical use in my opinion.

I've only shot two different types of ammo through the Kimber for a total of about 150 rounds so far, cheap american eagle hard ball and hornady xtps. Not one single hick-up. I didn't shoot off the bench but with me behind the gun 4" free hand groups are way more common than not. These groups were shot at 25 yards with only drift adjustable sights. They are regulated perfectly to boot.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to own another one.

I only have experience with springfield, colt, lama and now kimber and the kimber is much better than any of the fore mentioned guns.

Be Safe,
Scott

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2004, 05:39:06 PM »
vwys67 -

My experience with 1911-style handguns is fairly limited - my brother has a Para Ordnance (P14-45) and a Detonics that I've shot, and I have a Kimber (Stainless Custom compact).

The Kimber has always shot great - better than I can.  Never had a problem with it.

Last Saturday I went through the IPSC safety course (mandatory before you can shoot in an IPSC competition), using the 7-shot Kimber.  After the instructional part of the class we went to the range where we eventually ran a couple IPSC-type stages.  Only had 2 7-round magazines and the first stage required 28 shots to complete, so I had to borrow a couple 10-rounders.  My time wasn't anything to write home about, but as usual, the Kimber functioned flawlessly for 113 shots.
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Offline BamBams

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2004, 06:04:07 PM »
Congrats on getting through the "Safety Check."  If you ever shoot any matches in Pueblo or at Dragon Man's range, we're bound to run into eachother.  Let me know which club (there are 10 along the Front Range) you hook up with, and I'll be keeping an eye out for ya.

I'm a believer in 5 mags for the Limited 10 division.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2004, 06:25:52 PM »
BamBams -

Have never shot at Dragon Man's, but have driven by it numerous times when driving between home (Franktown area) and Schriever AFB.  My club is Ben Lomond, east of Kiowa 17 miles and 5 miles south (north of Ramah).

Although I took the safety class, its not clear if I'll ever actually shoot IPSC.  The class convinced me that if I do the 7-shot Kimber is not the best choice for competition - at a minimum I would need 10-round mags.   Still, it was a lot of fun, and fairly inexpensive, might just ahve to compete once or twice a year for the fun of it, to heck with the results!  (Can you see me reloading mags in the middle of a stage?)
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Offline neon frizzen

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Kimber vs. Others?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2004, 11:44:33 AM »
vws67
 I have a very hard time believing kimber would work on a gun and leave vice marks on the frame. That said.
 I bought a new custom 2 ( cheapest one) and couldn't keep 7 rounds on a 2x2 foot piece of cardboard at 15 yards. I called them and they said to put 500 rounds through it to let the parts meld.  I didn't realy push them. I'm at probabably a 1000 rounds now and out of a clean barrel it does pretty good. First shot almost always on bulls and accuracy gets worse and worse until I clean again. The reason I havn't sen't it back is becuase it's been slowly improving, not because kimber tried to give me any hassle. I  expected better accuracy out of the box, but I enjoy plinkin and reloading. Once it starts really shooting say 50 rounds(which I believe it will ) then I'll have to go and buy another gun for a new project. So I'm actualy saving money in the long run :<)