Author Topic: long barrel Tradtional Muzzle Loaders (Read 999 times)

MLRowland · « **on:** May 31, 2004, 01:48:46 PM »

Why are they so long barreled?I have a 24" Rifled octagon barrel 50 Cal sidelock by Tradtions with open sights.I shot my first deer with it this year.I loce it.Do not get me wrong I love those long guns but I was just asking why are they so long?I have a friend Flintlock that has a good saying and go's like this"If you are going to smoke------ do it with black powder"

willysjeep134 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 31, 2004, 03:21:58 PM »

longer barrel=less wasted powder gasses=more velocity for less powder.

It takes many feet of tube to begin to loose velocity from slow burning black powder. Longer smooth bore muskets are also reported to be more accurate than short smooth bore musketoons.

The longer sight radius also tends to help with accuracy.

Ramrod · « **Reply #2 on:** May 31, 2004, 11:54:40 PM »

Like willysjeep134 says more velocity and accuracy from longer sight radius. For rifles one more thing, the long barrels are easier to hold steady for offhand shooting. As far as military muskets, with bayonets attached they were used as pikes at close range. I doubt you would want one shorter than the enemy's. Short barrels only came into use because they were easier to load on horesback.

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #3 on:** June 01, 2004, 07:58:01 AM »

This subject comes up every so often. There was a thread regarding this on MLML a couple of years ago. Someone there did testing by taking a long barrel and cutting off an inch at a time, shooting with the same powder/ball/patch combo ovefr a chronograph. IIRC the velocity stayed pretty consistent until he got to 24" where it started to drop. Based on this, I don't hold with the "increased velocity" idea. The old timers didn't have chronographs, so they worked up the most accurate load for the rifle and let it go at that. If they wanted/needed more energy they would double the charge.

However, a long barrel gives a long sight radius. This is certainly conducive to better accuracy. Those folks from long ago saw this so they turned out long barreled rifles.

My two cents worth...

-WH-

flintlock · « **Reply #4 on:** June 01, 2004, 09:24:55 AM »

When the original German gunsmiths came over here....they were used to making their jaegers...short barrel...large calibers, used for boar hunting...
The earliest guns they made in America were shorter barrel guns...like they were used to making....but the people they were selling to preferred (or were used to ) shooting the longer barreled English fowlers and the French fusils....they had longer barrels...so...the barrels became longer and most were swamped (tapered and flared) for better balance...in addition the calibers became smaller, as deer and black bear were the largest game east of the Applachians (by 1750 most of the eastern elk and buffalo had been killed)...this also helped conserve powder, gave a better sighting radius and also was better at burning the powder that was being made over here at the time, as it was of inferior quality as to the powder made in Europe...Most of these early guns (1770-1810) actually balance quite well because of the swamped barrells....by 1820...the guns were becoming more of a mass produced product...and barrels weren't always swamped or tapered...so they became shorter...and more utilitarian than the earlier rifles....

MLRowland · « **Reply #5 on:** June 01, 2004, 11:44:49 AM »

Thanks Flintlock.Sorry I messed up you saying.

The Cast Bullet Kid · « **Reply #6 on:** June 01, 2004, 11:57:45 AM »

Hi
Regarding the longer barrel, more velocity theory I came across something interesting a few months back.
I rebarreled a Richland Wesson from .50cal to .40cal and put a 39inch Colerain on it. I reviewed the barrel length and had 6 inches taken off for better balance and the following are the velocity results.
30gr 3Fg 39 inch barrel 1400fps
30gr 3Fg 33 inch barrel 1650fps

45gr 3Fg 39 inch barrel 1950fps
45gr 3Fg 33 inch barrel 1950fps

You will see that in terms of smaller charges a short barrel in my case yielded more velocity and the the additional tube was slowing the ball down. The top end charge made no difference.

Snowshoe · « **Reply #7 on:** June 01, 2004, 01:14:00 PM »

I have used muzzleloaders with a 32" barrel, 28" barrel and a 24" barrel. I have not seen much difference in accuracy, but a huge difference in how they handle. A 24" barreled Lyman Deerstalker is what I am using now, and I much prefer it to the others.

Ramrod · « **Reply #8 on:** June 01, 2004, 02:01:28 PM »

My old Lyman Black Powder Handbook (First Edition 1975) shows 100 grain charge of fffg giving a .50 roundball 1875 fps in a 28" barrel and 2095 in a 43" barrel.
In a .54 for another example, 120 grains fffg shows 1730 fps in the 28" tube and 1907 in a 43".
Yes, at some point you will burn all the powder and any longer barrel will just be a drag on the ball. But this point is reached sooner with light charges, and later with heavy hunting loads.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #9 on:** June 04, 2004, 01:25:02 PM »

Ya wanna know my answer?

I don't know.

I will buy the military musket reasoning that the gun was essentially just the pole to hold a bayonet. The fact that it went BOOM was an added plus.

But why the rifle barrels were so long still escapes me. I'm not convinced by the more efficient powder burn hypothesis. Nor am I convinced with the sight-radius hypothesis. The ones that may convince me more would be the easy-to-shoot-offhand hypothesis or the "it was the fashion of the times" hypothesis.

There are some drawbacks of a longer barrel that note-able. For the hide-behind-a-stump style of combat a long barrel is hell to reload. Just tip your kitchen table over on its side and duck behind it with your smokepole. Try to load the entire thing without presenting a target to your enemy above the table. Those 24" barreled jobbers are real nice in such a situation.

However, I will say that taller muzzle loaders are much nicer to reload while standing upright. I get a little nervous crouching over a short muzzle loader - it's too easy to put your face in harm's way.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #10 on:** June 04, 2004, 05:36:14 PM »

A longer sight radius really does help minimize sighting errors. It's simple geometry that a short distance magnifies twitches and shakes - just try shooting a 2 inch snub .38 at 50 yds against your 36 cal longrifle. The snub is not inherently less accurate but it's harder for the average person to hold and shoot well at distance - even from a bench rest. It's quite apparent with very short barrels but there has to be a point of diminishing returns or someone, somewhere, would be carrying an 8 ft rifle. I have a 42 inch barrel on my 45 Mountain rifle but it would be handier at a 36 inch length and I don't think I'd be losing too much in either accuracy or power.

fffffg · « **Reply #11 on:** June 05, 2004, 05:25:06 PM »

go to an archery match someday and look at the bow shooters.. you will notice on the pro target matches that they use a stabilizer about4 feet long on their bows for accuracy.. when you shoot a flintlock and the flint is plenty dull it can take a bit before that guy goes off.. you have to hold till relieved.. the old masters found that if you swamp the barrel, that is file it down in the middle and leave the breach large enought to make it safe and leave metal on the end of the barrel it will be the same weight as a big octigon bore, or even lighter, and hold on better in off hand shooting, espescially when the flint is taking its time.. remember the old military arms used the same powder in the pan as in the bore and this held things up also.. then the bayonet lenght as mentioned above, and as the powder looses oopphhh going down the bore the ball stabilizes and isnt pushed as it reaches the muzzel reducing spin, and blowby that pushes the ball innaccurtly, this im sure will be argued about, but is an interesting point.. once youve shot a long stock swamped gun with large lock youll never whant anything else.. go to http://www.flintlocks.com/ to look at some nice guns.. good luck dave...

willysjeep134 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 06, 2004, 06:44:57 PM »

I betcha with a really small powder charge te gasses can't quite fill up the barrel and after the gas pressure drops the bullet is slowed by drag. With heavier powder charges more gas is created, so the longer barrel lets the gasses act on the ball. I think You can only get so much velocity from a shorter barrel because the powder burns pretty slow and doesn't have time to reach a higher pressure. Longer barrles let the powder build more pressure before the ball leaves the muzzle, as long as you have enough powder to make enough gas to fill up the barrel.