Author Topic: Reduced load for .303.  (Read 1595 times)

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Offline Gaz

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Reduced load for .303.
« on: May 10, 2004, 08:59:22 PM »
Has anyone got a good reduced load for a .303? I am thinking of a 180 grn. slug at about 1600 fps. It's just for a plinking load so I don't need a lot of boondi. The reason I am thinking of 180 grns is that I think a shorter bullet would be over stabilised in a twist that was originaly set up for 215 gns.
Also, I have been advised to use dacron as a filler in a reduced load in order to keep the powder up against the primer. I can see the point of keeping the powder in place,but I'm not sure about this one. Can anyone offer advice?
Thanks,
Gaz.
Ya'll take it easy, hear.

Offline Robert357

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How reduced?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2004, 06:00:18 AM »
I am not sure how reduced 1600 fps is, but I have been doing some cast bullet reduced load work ups for the 7.62x54R, which is also a rimmed cartridge of about the same powder capacity and bulllet diameter.  Mostly, I have been working with 155, 175 and 180 grain bullets.

My suggestion would be that gas checked lead bullets or jacketed bullets are a must.  I don't use any dacron, as I choose my powders very carefully to be not very case position sensitive.  I have used H-4895 (anywhere from half to full load), Alliant 2400 (a little less than 16 grains) and H-Titegroup (5 to 7 grains).

I would suspect that the Alliant 2400 at 16 grains +or- and that a 50% to 60% load of H-4895 might be "in the range you are interested in.

Hodgdon has told me that for H-4895 and cast bullets a 50%full case is a typical cast bullet load.  They have a slightly different 60% rule for their youth loads.....

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/youth/index.php

There is another post on this website in the cast bullet section on 16 grains of Alliant 2400 being a universal load for military sized cartridges with typically heavy bullets

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=17447&highlight=

I would suggest looking at that and emailing Tallyman for the original article as it is worth reading.  It talks about different levels of reduced load from gallery to 200 yard hunting load and different powders and approximate subsitutions.

Finally, if you have your heart set on using a "filler," there are lots of things to think about including the potential for "ringing" your chamber.
A safer alternative might either be the cream of wheat approach or
specially made filler.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp
 
Personally, I would rather, just choose a powder that isn't position sensitive and use that instead of messing with a filler.  I really don't like the idea of a filler.

From what I have read and my experience, I can say that H-4895, Alliant 2400, and TiteGroup all work well a reduced loads without any need for filler.  Good luck!

Offline Donna

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2004, 12:45:03 PM »
Gaz- :D

Before you use reduced loads please go to my website at www.aeroballisticsonline.com and select the article “Powder & Primers” then page down to the section on “Reduced Loads” but the whole article is good reading. Below is the section from the article:

Reduced Loads:
"It's hard to be sure on exactly what is happening to Interior Ballistics because we simply cannot see what is going on inside a closed breech and/or a cartridge. From the book "Understanding Ballistics" by Robert A. Rinker, Mr. Rinker tells of a Kentucky court case, Schuster v. Steedley, Oct. 1966, 406 S. W. 2d 387, were an unproven theory was used. "Testimony by an expert witness from H. P. White Laboratory, the theory stated when a cartridge is loaded so that the powder charge leaves a lot of space in the cavity between the primer and the base of the bullet, the primer flash can cross the open space while the powder is laying on the bottom. (The cartridge being horizontal at the time.) This flash may move the bullet out of the case but it will have insufficient energy to properly engage the rifling. This happens a short instant before the powder is ignited and creates the main gas expanding force. More force is then required to move the bullet than is normal and excessive pressure is exerted on the cartridge's base and the breech mechanism of the gun. Also, the bullet may become lodged in the barrel and create an obstruction for a successive shot."

 Another theory involves pressure waves. This is were a reduced load pushes a bullet slowly down the barrel, while a high pressure wave moving much faster catches up to the bullet and is reflected back to the chamber where more powder has been burning causing high pressure in the chamber. When the reflected pressure wave smashes into the high chamber pressure destructive forces can develop. Or a partially ignited reduced load causing a slow burn. The bullet is forced into the rifling and jammed causing a pressure wave to build and advance down the chamber and slams into the jammed bullet and develops destructively excessive chamber pressures. Norma, a Swedish ammunition and powder manufacturer, cautions about the hazards of using reduced loads that fill the case to about one third of its volume. They basically believe in the pressure wave theory.

 It was found that both velocity and chamber pressure changes depending on were the powder load was in relationship to the primer. In reduced loads, by tipping the gun up then carefully lowering the gun level to the target that would cause the powder to be against the primer before firing, the pressures and velocities were always higher then if the powder were against the bullet. By using a small amount of cotton or nonflammable material like kapok, the filler for cost guard approved life vest, or Dacron, the powder could be kept to the rear against the primer so that proper ignition is more likely to take place, keeping the pressures and velocities consistent.

 Different groups use to support the use of fiber filler for reduced loads, for example the NRA and the Cast Bullet Association. But a lot of people started to, what is called, "ring the chamber". This is were the fiber filler was used improperly and as the pressure from the burning powder increased it would shove the fiber filler into the base of the bullet. The bullet would act as a barrel obstruction and expand the chamber at the neck this would give a nice bulging ring around it. To correct this, the barrel would have to be set back and a reamer would be used to re-cut a new chamber; this would shorten the barrel a bit. That is why the NRA, the Cast Bullet Association, other groups, and I do not recommend the use of fiber fillers or any fillers for reduced loads or reduced loads themselves. Please note that I have only told you that fiber filler is used, I have not told you the proper way in which to use it.

 I have heard some people say that ringing the chamber is caused by the air gap between the powder and the base of the bullet is pressurized and this pressurized air slams into the base of the bullet causing the bullet to expand and that is what causes the chamber to be ringed. This just is not true!!! It is caused by a solid object like fiber filler improperly used hitting the base of the bullet and expanding the base.

 I am in favor of a theory formulated by an ex-military officer involved with shape charges. The military found out by using a primer cord that if they put the two ends together and ignited the primer cord it would burn in two directions at once and where the two burning ends came together there was an explosion leaving a small crater in the ground. Primer cord is a very fast burning fuse that is a thick cord whose burn rate is measured from a slow of feet per second to a fast of miles per second. The ex-military officer suggested that as the charge lies in a case of a reduced load the primer might sometimes be partly exposed so that the primer ignites the powder near the primer and some of the primer fire jumps and ignites the powder near the bullet too. The powder burns from both ends towards the middle, when the flames reaches each other it will act as a shape charge exploding, causing the destruction of the firearm. But, it is still not known for sure why there are sudden destructively excessive chamber pressures when using reduced loads.

 Reduced loads are used to reduce recoil, noise, amount of powder being used, and other reasons. If reduce loads is something that might appeal to you, might I suggest that you buy a smaller caliber gun and not use reduce loads. The powders made today are not designed or meant for reduced loads. They are designed and meant for full powder charges."

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline jd45

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reduced .303 brit. loads
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2004, 02:32:17 PM »
A guy I shoot with mentions 5744 (I'm not sure if it's IMR) powder when working up low power loads. Hard-cast/gas check bullets ( I'd go to www.proshootpro.com) would be advisable. jd45.

Offline Robert357

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Not sure I agree
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2004, 03:13:07 PM »
Donna;
Your post included the following.......
>>"The powders made today are not designed or meant for reduced loads. They are designed and meant for full powder charges."

That may be true for some powders, but not for all powders.  Since I have gotten into reduced cast bullet loads recently, this is kind of a hot button for me.  I read your post completely and especially the lawsuit testimony quoted.  Having said that I think the quote is not universally true and not good advice for someone who is interested in reduced loads.

Specifically I would again refer you to the Hodgdon Powder Company websites on youth loads......

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/youth/index.php

And I quote from their website.........
"For all cartridges we chose H4895 because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly at reduced charges. For years, H4895 has been the top choice by cast bullet shooters. For this type shooting, loads are reduced even more than the hunting loads listed herein."

If the above is not a "reduced load" blessing by the powder manufacturer, I sure don't know what would be.

I would also refer you to the Lyman Cast Bullet Reloading manual that has many many "reduced loads" published for Alliant 2400 and Unique powders.  I can't speak for Unique powder because, I have not tried it, but I can say that I have relied upon the Lyman Cast Bullet Reloading Manual in the firing of many Alliant 2400 powder reduced loads and never had a problem.  If Alliant 2400 can not be used for a "reduced load," then Lyman has an incredible legal liability on their hands, as the book is still in print and actively being sold.

There are many powders out their today like H-110 that I would never think about trying at a reduced load (note their caution about not going a small percent below their max charge suggestion).  I would also never just grab a can of powder and start trying things in the hope of finding something that works and doesn't blow up my firearm.  

However, having said that, I think that, there is an incredible history out their associated with cast bullet shooting, where reduced loads with certain powders, calibers, and bullet sizes have been historically proven to be safe.

Offline Robert357

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Reduced .303 load
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2004, 08:17:06 PM »
Gaz

You had asked for a .303 reduced load 180 grain load that would be about 1600 fps.

According to the Hodgdon Website for youth loads.......

"By taking the maximum charges listed in our Annual Manual with any given cartridge and multiplying it by 60%, the shooter can create a 1500 to 2100 fps load, depending on the bullet weight shown. This works only where H4895 is listed. Do not use H4895 in a cartridge where it has not been shown.

Call Hodgdon Powder Company if additional information is needed. Loads may be adjusted up or down to achieve best accuracy. Do not reduce by more than an additional 10%."

My Hodgdon's 2004 Annual Manual lists the following information for the .303 and H-4895 powder with a 180 grain .311 bullet.

Starting load 34.0 grains and max load of 38.0 grains of H-4895 with OAL of 3.075, Federal 210 primer, Remington case, 24" barrel with 1:10" twist,  case trim length 2.212"

If you take the Hodgdon Powder Company 60% suggestion, that would work out to be a starting load of about 20.4 grains and a max youth load of about 22.8 grains of H-4895 for roughtly 1500 to 2100 fps.

I hope this helps.  Let us know how things go.

Offline John Traveler

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reduced loads
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2004, 09:05:35 PM »
I'm with you, Robert357.

Many of us have used "reduced" loads (compared to full-charge rifle loads) for several decades, with perfectly satisfactory results.  This would include cast bullet loads, of course.

The reloading equipment manufacturer's certainly have a large stake in this, and would not print reduced loads unless they have proven safe.

I believe that article Donna is referencing describes the SEE or secondary explosion effect that has baffled ballisticians for many years.  The last I read and heard, the warnings to not use reduced charges applied to over-bore capacity cartridges using very slow-burning or ball propellents.

Clearly, .303 British loads using H4895 and Unique do not apply here.  For many years .30-06 match shooters used 38-40 grains of IMR4895 and H4895 behind a 150 grain FMJ servic bullet were used for mid-range target shooting for reduced recoil and muzzle blast.  I've fired several thousands of such loads myself.  If they weren't safe, would the NRA recommend them?

Ballistic theories are nice, and sometimes provide usefull information, but they are no substitute for safe, established loading practices.

John
John Traveler

Offline Donna

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2004, 09:52:29 PM »
Robert357, :D

I have no intention of beating a dead horse with you. Anyone can do what ever they want to, Gaz was asking for advice on reduced loads and I gave Gaz my advice. The quote was on an untested theory in court with a reduced load period. The Hodgdon powder H4895, regardless of what people use it for or what Hodgdon’s says about it, was made and intended for full power loads. Reduced load powders were the bulk powders that have been discontinued some decades ago. Nothing that I said, no matter how it rubs you, is incorrect. The most important thing here with this forum is to present correct information to people so that the individual may make up his or her mind from an informative standpoint.  And anytime a product is not used as designed there is a special risk taken that should be made known and that is all I have done is made the reader aware of certain risks. Guns have been damaged or destroyed and people have been injured from reduced loads. Yes, people have been doing reduced loads for years without any problems but that still does not mean it is a good idea. I do not think reduced loads are worth that risk, if you want less power get a smaller cartridge gun. But as I said earlier you and anyone else can do whatever you want too. Now pray tell, what part is not good advice for someone who is interested in reduced loads?

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Robert357

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Thanks J T
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2004, 06:39:16 AM »
John T;

Thanks for both the moral support and the insight.

"I believe that article Donna is referencing describes the SEE or secondary explosion effect that has baffled ballisticians for many years. The last I read and heard, the warnings to not use reduced charges applied to over-bore capacity cartridges using very slow-burning or ball propellents."


I have always wondered why H-110 and the Winchester equivallent have such strong cautions about not reducing the powder below more than X% of the listed load.

Now I think I understand why a strong crimp, and little reduction from max load data are mandated on H-110, which is a very slow burning ball (spherical) powder.  I always wanted to understand why that particular powder had that warning.  It now makes sense to me.

I think I will stick to my Alliant 2400 for magnum pistol loads as I can use it with cast bullets as well.

P.S.  Donna

Thank you for your post.  While we may not agree, between your post and John's I learned quite a bit about the H-110 warning, which is something I have been curious about for years.  I think I now understand the reason behind that manufacturers warning.  

I also agree with you that handloading does involve a degree of risk and different folks have different views about that risk.  Personally, I don't want to expose myself to lots of risk.  That is why I try not to stray from within the path that others have followed before me as recorded in various reloading manuals.  

Thank you for what I learned from your website & post.

Offline John Traveler

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Donna's posting
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2004, 08:26:46 AM »
Robert,

Donna has been known to be very emphatic about her book learning area of expertise before.   Follow some of her previous postings on bullet swaging.  You will see that she somehow likes to chew and spit out anyone that disagrees with her.

If she really is an "aeroballistics enginer", I suspect that her skills are purely academic, and not in the areas of applied technology.  I wondered how she got involved in custom bullet swaging.

Just a word of warning.  I've worked in aerospace for 22 years, and have known many people like that who's epertise is so narrow and specialized that they get VERY touchy when someone even HINTS that there may be other answers to the questions at hand.  At any rate, I too try to keep an open mind to new ideas, but hers sure don't fit any empirical hands-on eperience that I can see.

Oh, yes:  I will continue to use "reduced loads" contrary to her advice to not use powders for which they are not intended!  grin

Good and safe shooting to you too!

John
John Traveler

Offline Darrell Davis

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2004, 08:32:56 AM »
:D Morn'in Handloaders,

Just a couple of thoughts from a user of "reduced" loads.

Donna makes the comment about why would you use a reduced load, why not just choose a smaller round if you want a lighter load?

Well, in my case and the case of a couple family members and some friends it is like this - we have a person who is not a regular shooter, does not go out and bust caps just for the pure enjoyment of doing so, yet likes to do a bit of hunting when that time rolls around.

Now this person can go out and do the needed/required amount of practice with their hunting rifle, get beat around a bit and possibly develop a flinch and dislike for the whole process OR do we make it so they can shoot a goodly amount all the while enjoying the experience.

I will and do choose the latter both with adult family members as well as young shooters who are just getting started and will soon be hunting.

In fact, my wife seldom if ever shoots a full power load except when the critter is before her and she is ready to fill her tag. She, in the past, has enjoyed being out, and she enjoys the fruits of our hunts as much as I do, but she doesn't shoot for enjoyment like I do. She doesn't need to. She doesn't even need to go through the "sighting in" process. All she needs to know is how to handle her rifle and that when she takes aim, she will hit what/where she is holding.

I am concerned that she never develop a fear of the firearm and that she and my daughter develop good shooting skills WITH THE SAME FIREARM they will use for the hunt.

It works for me, it is safe, and I will continue to use and encourage others to use well researched, reduced loads.

Keep em coming! :wink:
300 Winmag

Offline Gaz

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2004, 08:52:22 PM »
Wow! I didn't think this question would be so controversal.
For a start, the filler is out. I never liked the idea.
Unfortunatly, in Oz, we seem to be limlted to A.D.I. powders. Thier catalogue indicates that AR2208 is similar to H4895. Is there anyone out there familiar with A.D.I. powders?
Thanks very much for your advice.
Gaz.
Ya'll take it easy, hear.

Offline Robert357

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Not sure
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2004, 06:59:08 AM »
Gaz;
I have no experience with A.D.I. powders, so I can't give you an answer.

You might try contacting Steve at Steve's page after you have tried looking up his lowest tested jacketed bullet load for your specific rifle
http://stevespages.com/page8c.htm

If that doesn't work, I can tell you how I would approach getting an answer, beside posting a question like yours on a website like this one.

In looking over the ADI powder website, it appears that under the Single Action Rifle loads that they have a few factory recommended cast bullet loads for specific calibers.  Most of the reduced velocity/power cast bullet "Single Action Rifle" loads appear to be using 2207 powder although one uses 2208.  As I said earlier, I would not suggest grabbing a powder and just starting to experiement.  That is really risky.  

Therefore, I would write to ADI powder company, tell them what you would like to do (include specifics as to bullet brand & weight) and ask them for their recommendation as to a powder and load range.

If ADI is reluctant to provide any such information, I would then ask them if there is a cast bullet loading group or association that uses their powders
that they could recommend contacting.  

If that doesn't work, I would try posting your question with your preferred brand (ADI) of powder on a website along with your question in a website and forum, where others experienced in what you want to do may be located.

http://servicerifle.forum.org.nz/SRF/
http://www.nranz.com/

Good luck and let us know what you find.

Offline Donna

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2004, 10:17:49 AM »
JohnT, :D

I’ve heard of guys having convenient deafness but convenient blindness, that’s a new one on me. LOL You must have mist seeing were I’ve stood up for guys that had new idea that were laughed by their male friends as being idiotically stupid. Yes, I do a lot of book reading to inform me on all sorts of shooting related subjects especially the one before I do any of my experiments, I tend to think that it enlightens me and keeps my mind open. I feel sorry for you John that you do not understand that. But than again for whatever reason there are a few guys like John that feel the need to put women down so that they can feel big about themselves. Women that succeed are always plagued with John’s.

Donna :wink:
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline John Traveler

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Donna's comments
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2004, 02:10:00 PM »
Donna,

You are reacting JUST like an undisciplined woman.... you just gotta have the last word!  It doesn't matter if it's a nonsensical conclusion, or even if it's downright insulting to all the men out here.  as long as it's the last word.  Hmmmm.

As a matter of fact, I've worked with and have huge respect for almost all the female engineers and scientists that I've been teamed with.  None of THEM get all *defensive* and insulting when their beliefs are challenged.

*sigh*

Say, when are you going to invest in a good dictionary or learn to use your spelling/syntax checker?

Enough said.
John Traveler

Offline Gaz

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2004, 11:50:48 PM »
Donna,
..."undisiplined woman...".Now thems fightin words.
I aint had so much fun since the hogs ate my brother in law!
Seriously, though, thanks for enlightening me on the S.E.effect. Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that it never will.
And thanks to everyone else for your valued input.
Gaz.
Ya'll take it easy, hear.

Offline ButlerFord45

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2004, 05:05:54 AM »
Enough of the insults, it accomplishes nothing and my tolerance level is starting to get small.
There is little I enjoy more than a good heated on topic debate, it tends to bring out ideas some of us have never thought of; however, personal attacks end now.
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline Larry Gibson

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2004, 08:29:31 AM »
Donna

"I’ve heard of guys having convenient deafness but convenient blindness, that’s a new one on me. "

Hate to burst your bubble sweetheart but the clock stopped on the theories you're quoting some years ago.  SEE no longer "baffles" anyone as the cause is known and is repeatable in laboritories and on the shooting bench (if you want to risk your firearm and risk injury).  There was an extensive article published in "Handloader" some years ago that explains what occurs in an SEE quite well and it is not any of the old wives tales you continue to proffer.  The contents of the article and the test results of the laboritory involved have been proven corrrect by several other manufacturers.  Federal and Hercules disproved the "wave" theory years ago also.  I can post the "Handloader" article if requested.

For GAZ

At the velocity mentioned (1600 fps) a lighter bullet is not "overstabilized" as the RPMs are still reletively low.  I shoot a lot of surplus AK/SKS 123/125 gr bullets through my .303s over 14 gr or Unique.  Velocity is 1850 fps out of my long barreld Ross M10.  Accuracy is excellent, 2-3 MOA,  considering the rifle and bullets.   Recoil is nil.  I suggest you try it.

Larry Gibson

Offline Robert357

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yes please post the article or at least quotes from it.
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2004, 02:10:40 PM »
Yes, please post some parts of the article if that isn't asking too much.

As I said above, I have been quite curious about why H-110 and W 296(?) has such strong warnings about not reducing powder charge and making sure the round has a slolid crimp.

Both of those warnings sounded much like the bullet pops out of case then SEE explaination in Donna's article.  If that isn't the correct interpretation, I would also appreciate learning that as well.  It also matches well with John's slow ball powder comments.  

Thank you for clearing the record on this.  I found it hard to believe that either Lyman nor Hodgdon would take such risks if there was much risk for any powder recommendation they make.  Although since Hodgdon cautions not going 10% below their 60% rule, I suspect that even for other powders it you go too far you are risking strange things happening.

Thanks again

Offline Iowegan

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Reduced load for .303.
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2004, 07:51:10 PM »
I won't get into the arguments, just have some facts. Years ago when copper crushers were used, there was a single measurement point. The amount the copper ball was crushed translated to a pressure (copper units of pressure). If a charge had a secondary detonation, there was no way to detect it. Now we have modern measurement means using piezo devices that actually measure pressure in psi. Not only are they more accurate, they can be displayed against time in micro seconds, then charted on a graph. The graph will show the up-ramp in pressure then show the steady decline as the bullet travels down the barrel.

With the piezo device, the first loads of WW296 (or it's near identical twin, H110) that were tested using a light charge indicated a very high peak pressure but DID NOT indicate a secondary detonation as was theorized before. The engineers have proven that a light charge will lay in the bottom of the case and expose more surface area to the primer. In other words, more powder is initially ignited and that causes a very high chamber pressure, often to the point of exploding.

There is a fine line between an explosive and a propellent. The difference in the two is burn rate. Modern smokeless powder is supposed to be a propellent. That means the burn rate is controlled so it won't explode. Everyone thinks a gun explodes but that noise you hear is really a sudden change in pressure. When there is an explosion, the gun acts like a pipe bomb and literally blows up.  When 296 or H110 is loaded too light, the result can be an explosion because too much powder ignited at once.

When I worked in the lab, there were a number of slow burning rifle powders that would produce results similar to 296. Some powders such as 4895 are more forgiving. Oddly enough, IMR 4895 produces about the same peak chamber pressure with a 50% charge as it does with a 100% charge. The driving pressure doesn't last as long in a reduced charge so the velocity of the bullet exiting the barrel will be much lower than a full charge.  Because peak pressure isn't any higher in a reduced load than a full load, IMR 4895 should be safe to use in reduced loads, IMR 4198 is better.  

The old SR 4759 was designed for reduced loads in rifles. It worked wonderful in all cartridges I ever tested. It's a bulky powder that ignites pretty slow.  I haven't seen 4759 on the shelves for quite some time so I'm not sure it's still in production.
GLB

Offline jd45

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reduced loads for .303 British
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2004, 02:43:14 AM »
Correction to my previous post on this subject......it wasn't 5744, but SR 4759 the guy I shoot with was referring to for low power rifle loads. Thanx for jogging my memory. jd45.

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: yes please post the article or at least quotes from it.
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2004, 09:49:46 AM »
Robert357

"Yes, please post some parts of the article if that isn't asking too much."

Here is the handloader article.  Interesting to note that reduced charges of 296 and H110 with 300 gr bullets have caused SEE in a couple Contender handguns. where two or three shots had been fired successfully and then SEE when the handgun was raised from a muzzle down carry and fired.  Subsequent tests by others have confirmed the results in the article.  Years ago the 25-06 with light weight varmint bullets and reduced loads of surplus 4831 were the primary culprits of SEE.  From the facts discovered and presented in the article it is obvious that the reason for SEE has been found.  SEE occurs when a set of circumstances create a bore obstruction, no more - no less.

Larry Gibson

Handloader- readers have doubtless heard of a term called secondary explosion effect (S.E.E.). It is a theory that attempts to explain the catastrophic failure of some rifles while firing seemingly reasonable handloads or reduced loads using slow-burning powders. Theories have been offered and debated in these pages and elsewhere, but they have been just that, theories, because no one has been able to reproduce effects under laboratory conditions.   The purpose here is not to debate S.E.E. but rather to report on a specific incident and the results of tests done to discover the cause of catastrophic failure.

One of the great problems with attempting to theorize on the cause of catastrophic failures is that we must do so after the fact.                              We have the corpse, usually with some parts missing and must try to figure out what went wrong. Learned theories are offered, sometimes conflicting, and we end up with a bunch of folks shouting in print, 'You're wrong.' "No, you’re wrong." Since the event they're arguing about what without benefit of instrumentation, either one could be right. The events I describe here represent the first instance of an event produced under controlled laboratory conditions and documented on industry standard pressure measuring equipment that provides a plausible explanation offered to explain S.E.E.    

The following is simple. It goes all the way back to Shooting 101 where we learned that bore obstructions blow up guns. There are no explosions, no mysterious wave amplifications; it's just a case of several factors, combining in worst case conditions to create a bore obstruction with the bullet.  

In early 1989 a major manufacturer began development of a load for the 6.5x55mm Swedish that was to be added to their product line. Development was uneventful and all work was done using the copper crusher pressure measuring system, for there were no standards established for piezo-electric pressure measurement in the 6.5x55mm.  The copper crusher method of pressure measurement has been with us for generations, but it is not without its limitations. The results obtained are not true "maximum" pressures, and it provides only a single data point. There is no way that one can deduce what is happening during the period the powder is burning, nor can one see other significant ballistic events.  

A quantity of ammunition was loaded using a relatively slow-burning, non-canister propellant with a 140-grain bullet. After load development in ammunition manufacturer’s pressure guns, it is common practice to function test ammunition in a variety of available rifles to ensure satisfactory performance before it is released for sale to the public.

As function testing of the 6.5x55mm ammunition was begun using Swedish Mauser rifles, they noticed some of the same signs of excess pressure every handloader is taught. to look for - flattened primers, enlarged primer pockets and heavy bolt lift. All the ammunition fired in the pressure gun had been perfectly acceptable, but SAAMI test barrels and chambers are made to tightly controlled specifications so the first supposition was that some element within the test gun was contributing to high pressures.  Then a "spontaneous disassembly" occurred that destroyed the action but left the barrel undamaged. The bore was clear and showed no bulges. It was immediately identified as a high pressures failure and an investigation was begun. The barrel from the wrecked Mauser action was fitted with a collar that allowed it to be mounted in a universal receiver, and an industry standard conformal piezoelectric transducer was installed. Another test was performed using the Oehler Model 82 piezoelectric pressure measuring system equipped with a trace hold oscilloscope.

(Fig !)    
round             pressure (psi)              velocity (fps)                                  
1                      48,820                           2,601                
2                      53,849                          2,662                  
3                      57,609                          2,708                  
4                      57,999                          2,720                    
5                      54,093                          2,687                  
6                      58,634                          2,731                  
7                      62,150                          2,754                  
8                      82,120                          2,875                  

Pressure tests are commonly done with a 10-round string and as you can see from the chart, pressures increased very gradually on rounds I through 4. At the fifth shot, pressure dropped and then continued to increase until, at the eighth shot, pressure, went to 82,120 psi; and the technician wisely stopped the test. The raw data was then used to prepare additional graphs (fig. 1) which show that, after ignition, pressures dropped momentarily to near zero on the graph before beginning to rise again.                                        

To interpret this data we have to first understand the ground rules applicable to pressure testing with conformal transducers. The key term here is 'offset" which relates, primarily, to the specific cartridge and the brass used therein and must be determined for each transducer and lot of brass. The offset is the amount of pressure required to obturate the case to the chamber and begin to exert pressure upon the transducer. In this case the offset was 3,800 psi so when we look at the time/pressure curves produced in the test; we must understand that we are not actually seeing pressures below the level of the offset. There is a distinct dip in the curve, however, shortly after the pressure begins to rise when it drops to a level somewhere at or below the offset pressure. All we can say for sure is that, at this point, the pressure is <3,800 psi. Engineers calculated that for the specific bullet being used it would take pressure of at least 5,000 psi just to keep the bullet moving.

As I said, there are a number of variables at work here, but the main culprit is a very long leade or throat erosion. It takes relatively little pressure to eject the bullet from the cartridge case (de-bullet), which produces a significant increase in volume. Unless the rate of gas production is fast enough to keep up with the increase in volume, pressure must drop. The simple equation is PIVI=P2V' where P = pressure and V = volume. It is helpful in considering the phenomena reported here to view the rifle barrel and chamber as a cylinder whose volume is determined by the position of the bullet at any given point in time. If the bullet is moving, the volume is continuously increasing until the bullet exits the barrel.

If P2 is at or below the pressure required to keep the bullet moving it must stop. Then we run into our old friend inertia. Bodies at rest tend to remain at rest, but all the powder burning behind the resting bullet doesn't know about that. It keeps burning and pressure rises. Sometimes we get lucky and the bullet starts to move and relieve some of that pressure, but in a worst case of a rough bore and/or soft bullet it doesn't, and pressure continues to build until something else lets go. Most of the time this will occur around the primer pocket and gas will be released through the flash hole, but we're talking about events that are taking place quickly (milliseconds); and if pressure rises at a rate faster than it is being relieved, a catastrophic failure is inevitable It has been theorized that many 'accidents" represent a combination of effects which combine, in worst case conditions, to produce a catastrophic failure. Robert Greenleaf (Rifle No. 146) presents convincing evidence to show that conditions rarely remain the same, and the condition of the barrel and throat combined with different bullet characteristics can produce markedly different pressure levels for the same load. This is certainly seen in this data where a series of eight shots of the same ammunition delivered pressures ranging, and steadily increasing, from 48,820 psi up to 82,120 psi, at which point the test was stopped. We can, from looking at this test data, presume that all rounds (except perhaps the first) displayed some degree of temporary bore obstruction, but that the bullet was blown out of the barrel.  Fortunately universal receivers are capable of containing considerable pressures, and it is certainly possible that the pressure generated by the last shot would have wrecked a standard rifle.

One factor that cannot be accurately measured with this data is the possible contribution of fouling from the bullet itself. It seems reasonable to assume that some accumulated fouling was blown out on the fourth shot, which accounts for the drop in pressure at shot No. 5.  

When the engineers were able to examine and expand the time/pressure curves produced during this test, it became obvious that each shot showed a pronounced drop in pressure very early in the ignition/burning cycle and, on the shot where the pressure reached 82,120 psi, it dropped to the baseline before resuming a climb to the stratosphere. It would be easy to think that the fire went out, but a more reasonable explanation is that the burning rate of the powder became even slower. We know that pressure is a major component of the burning rate of any powder, and it depends upon adequate pressure levels being reached and maintained. In fact, what is shown in this case is that the amount of gas being generated was not sufficient to keep the bullet moving. If pressures drop below some optimum level, burning slows down and is often incomplete. Of course there will always be a quantity of unburned powder from any shot, and this observation has led to some of the conclusions regarding S.E.E.                                          

In order for the pressure to rise to catastrophic proportions some other adverse conditions must also be present. These involve the cartridge case, the bullet, chamber and barrel and need to be discussed individually.  

Bullet pull: We know that an adequate amount of tension between the case neck and bullet is a prerequisite for uniform combustion. This term, called bullet pull, is independent of the firearm and is routinely measured in the factories. Crimps may or may not be used to increase bullet pull, but most centerfire rifle cartridges depend primarily on tension between the case and bullet. If you've ever committed the sin of firing a cartridge into which you have neglected to dispense powder, you know that the primer alone is perfectly capable of propelling the bullet several inches down the barrel. Pressure generated by a primer alone can be as much as 4,000 psi in a conventional centerfire rifle cartridge; so it is certainly possible, in a normal round, for the primer impulse alone to be sufficient to get the bullet moving before little if any pressure has been generated by the powder charge.                                

Chamber: In the area of the case   neck there must always be some clearance between the case and the chamber wall, but if this area is too large   there is little resistance and the bullet can be released with very little pres sure behind it.            

Condition of the barrel and throat: The impact of conditions within the chamber and throat are difficult for the handloader to analyze, and a throat    that appears normal under cursory inspection may be revealed to be rough and irregular when seen through a bore scope. Greenleaf's report (Rifle No. 146) details how pressure increased as the number of rounds fired through a test barrel grew larger. This   can only be attributable to a deterioration of the throat and leade on that particular barrel. In this instance SAAMI standard barrels were used and    showed no irregularities, and it was only when the same ammunition was fired in a 'field' barrel with more generous tolerances and wear in these areas that problems were seen.                

Bullet hardness and stiffness: The shape and construction of the specific bullet used can be a major factor in the levels of pressure developed by any given load. Bullets undergo some degree of deformation as they enter the bore, and the force required for them to engrave the rifling and obturate to bore dimensions can vary considerably.

 Temperature: We know that pressures tend to increase as the barrel heats up, and a round that produces perfectly normal pressures from a cold barrel might show signs of excess pressure when the barrel is hot.

Work presented here answers questions. Some of the findings support theories offered to explain S.E.E. some don't. We haven't, for example, seen any evidence to indicate that there is ever an explosion, and many authorities doubt that there is. Perhaps what we need is a better name. Taken to its most basic component, what we have is that most fundamental cause of catastrophic failures: a bore obstruction. The difference here is that the offender is the bullet itself effect rather than some external source is both predictable and reproducible in the light of this new evidence, but it is highly dependent upon a combination of factors that produce disastrous results. If one or more is absent, everything will probably turn out fine; but when all come together, pressures rise and, sooner or later, sooner or later, something will fail. While it would appear that slow-burning powders contribute significantly, until now we didn't exactly know what to look for. I think it's at least theoretically possible for a bullet to stop in a barrel if the other conditions are bad enough with propellants other than the slower grades.

Have you ever fired a load that you had used often and suddenly gotten signs of excess pressure such as difficult bolt lift or flattened primers, and then fired another that seemed perfectly normal? I think this happens with some frequency, and our normal recourse is to shrug our shoulders and also be a bright red flag waving in keep on shooting; h6wever, this could front of our nose that is telling us that something is wrong. In the light of these findings, it could be telling us that a bullet did a stutter step before it went on out the barrel. The question then becomes what should we do about it. My first suggestion would be a careful investigation of the condition of the bore, especially the throat or leade to see if there is any erosion or roughness followed by thorough cleaning. A chamber cast might be in order to get precise measurements. If the barrel shows obvious signs of wear or throat erosion, the cure is obviously to replace it or set it back and rechamber. If the barrel appears to be within specifications, however, a change of bullet or propellant may be enough to solve the problem. The importance of this information is that it explains, with laboratory documentation, what can happen when the wheels fall off in the worst way. It seems like such a reasonable answer to many of the mysterious ka-booms that good reloaders have had with good handloads, and it is something we all need to keep in the back of our minds in case we encounter something out of the ordinary. While the data here was generated using the 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge, the observations are not specific to that round. They could occur with almost anything.

Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2004, 12:24:47 PM »
Larry, Once a theory has been developed by a reputable source, it seems to live forever, even if the theory is disproved. The SEE theory has been disproved by several labs at least 10 years ago. Yet some people continue to believe it because they can't explain it any other way. I read your post and I agree with most of the information but I have witnessed first hand lab results that can produce this phenomenon.

As I stated in my earlier post, there is a fine line between an explosive and a propellent. Both behave in a similar manner. The first "rule" for explosives is the "charge" must be contiguous in order to be predictable and repeatable. Any interruption in the burn will cause unpredictable results. I've seen C-4 shaped and detonated where it just popped. A slightly different shape with the same amount of C-4 caused a significant explosion. Gunpowder is no different in this respect. To get a contiguous burn, the powder granules must be touching and be ignited in a sequence similar to a chain reaction. Any break in the chain causes pressure fluxuations.

In a normal predictable rifle load, the chart first shows the primer detonation. A pressure of 4000 to 5000 psi comes up looking like a tooth on a saw. Then you "see" the powder begin to ignite. The pressure will spike again up to a pressure of 40-50,000 psi. Then there will be a short additional spike where the bullet is being forced into the bore. This will be the actual peak pressure. From that point on, the chart shows a steady decline in driving pressure until the bullet leaves the barrel and the pressure drops to zero.

In the lab, we intentionally loaded rifle cases with light powder charges, then ran them through the test cycle. By tilting the cases up, down, or shaking them horizontal, we could get totally different results from the same charge and bullet. The charts looked like a yoyo. Pressure would climb then fall, then climb again. These were not secondary explosions, they were a result of a non-contiguous burn. The fire never went out nor did the pressure ever drop to zero. Instead, we saw as many as 4 spikes when the powder was horizontal in the case. Sometimes one very big peak, sometimes 2 or 3 smaller spikes. The only thing predictable was the inpredictability. When there was one big peak in a horizontal mode, the pressure could easily double the normal peak pressure.

Cases with the powder to the front were much lower in peak pressure and the driving pressure was also much lower. The engineers told me the powder was blown out of the case before getting ignited. This always resulted in a very dirty bore, rich in unburned powder.

Cases with the powder shifted to the rear performed almost like a standard load. They were fairly predictable and only had one peak pressure spike. The pressure did vary quite a bit from round to round.

The SEE theory has been replaced with the proof of non-contiguous burn. The actual conditions aren't that much different, mostly in high-low-high vs on-off-on.

A reloader can experience a non-contiguous burn from light loads of slow burning powder or a bad (old) batch of powder. With handgun loads, a "position sensitive" condition can be experienced from the same exact non-contiguous burn.
GLB

Offline Robert357

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Interesting.
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2004, 02:25:09 PM »
LMG, if I understand this, the SEE theory says that the "first primer explosion/powder burn" is followed by a bullet exiting the neck and the pressure dropping to the point that the traveling bullet becomes a bore obstruction.  Then the obstruction allows pressure to build but not in a controlled way that resultings in the SEE or that for some reason there are multiple pressure waves within the cartridge during ignition.

To me this might explain the W-296 caution about needing a heavy bullet pull (potentially via heavy crimp).

Iowegian, if I undestand your point, it is that smokeless powder, like any medium, has a combustion rate that is a function of exposed surface area to the oxidizing process (along with pressure and others stuff).  In a compressed powder load the surface area may be as small as just a little more (due to depth) of the circular area of the cartridge cross section, yet in a reduced load bullet, it may be many times larger and similar in size to a longitudinal cross-section of the entire cartridge.  

If I undestand your point it is that while possible that any powder at sufficient low load or sufficient suface area may burn much faster and that burning rate may cause what we would say was an explosion.  However, different powders are differently susceptible to accelerated surface area enhance burning rates.  Maybe this is what Hodgdon refers to as "position sensitive" powders.

Thank you both for sharing your knowlege with us.

Offline Larry Gibson

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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2004, 02:28:54 PM »
Iowegan

I have to apologise if I led you to believe I was providing proof that SEE (Secondary Explosive Effect) was fact, it is not.  As you say, sometimes what is said or what something is called by reputable sources is very hard to correct.  SEE is the name that has stuck to instances of blown up actions.  Regardless of what the title is we now know what causes it.  That was explained in the article and has subsequently been proven numerous other times by others.  The "non-contiguous burn" you discuss is most often the middle ingredient.  However, it is the "non-contiguous burn" of slow burning powders that causes SEE, not with the fast or medium burning powders.  The use of a slow burning powder (relative to the case and bullet used), a long and rough throat make up the second and a bore obstruction (the bullet forced into the rough throat and sticking there) being the third.  That SEE (misnomer yes but it IS the common name now) can be readily reproduced upon demand.  That takes it, by definition, out of the realm of theory and makes it a fact.

What is unfortunate is the continued propagation of the disproven theories such as those mentioned by Donna.  As I told her the clock stopped on those theories when we had proven the real cause of SEE.  She just continues to spread the old theories as "fact".  

There have been millions and millions upon millions of light reduced loads fired with fast and medium powders in a multitude of cartridges very safely over the years.  Even though they may have "non-contiguous burn" the velocities are quite uniform and accuracy is excellent.  Also as long as the peak of any of the pressures in the "non-contiguous burn" do not exceed the structural limits of the cartridge or action they are entirely safe.  Because the powder begins burning quickly the bullet does not stop moving and become a bore obstruction.  It is only when we get into the use of slow burning (for the case or particular appication to the bullet) powders will we get into trouble.  However, double and triple charges or the use of the wrong powder are another reason for actions blowing up.  That usually is a result of a grossly over pressured load and has little to do with SEE.  

Thanks for the fine detailed explanations of your findings, they add greatly to our knowledge.

Larry Gibson

Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2004, 05:00:06 PM »
Robert357, Yes, I think you have a good grasp on the SEE thing. You picked up on the surface area exposed by the primer flash and the fact that powder burns erratic when the case isn't full enough.

Larry, Your barrel obstruction theory makes perfect sense. I wish I had the charts that show the high-low-high pressure swings. It would correlate perfect with pushing a bullet, then balk and push it again, only to have the bullet acting like a bore obstruction.  I had a confrontation with Donna a few months ago too. I would rather not  express my true feelings than get kicked off this forum.

I hope everyone understands that all powders do have different ignition and burn properties. Some are very safe for reduced loads while others might end up doing major damage.  Do your homework and consult with the powder companies or reloading manuals for suitable reduced rifle loads.

Position sensitive has come up in this discussion.  Small charges in a large cases using medium fast powders are usually the problems. Unique in a 45 Colt comes to mind. I have not lab tested these loads but I've sure shot a good many. I've always found a good crimp reduces the position sensitive issue. I use polyester filler to keep the powder against the primer where it belongs. This technique gets bad press because I think people use way too much filler. I found .5 grains works well in a 38/357 case and .7 grains works fine in a 44 mag or 45 Colt case.  I have run a good many over the chronograph and can get the max spread in a 45 Colt, using 8 grains of Unique, down to less than 10 fps. Without the filler, max spread could go higher than 100 fps and over 200 fps without a crimp. I've never seen any signs of residue from the filler and in fact find the powder burns much cleaner. The stuff (pun intended) I use is the same they use to stuff teddy bears or quilts.
GLB

Offline Donna

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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2004, 02:30:11 PM »
LMG-

What handloader number did you get the information out of that you presented to us about catastrophic failure (formerly S.E.E.)?

Donna
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Offline Jack Crevalle

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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2004, 01:35:48 AM »
Quote from: Iowegan
The old SR 4759 was designed for reduced loads in rifles. It worked wonderful in all cartridges I ever tested. It's a bulky powder that ignites pretty slow.  I haven't seen 4759 on the shelves for quite some time so I'm not sure it's still in production.


SR 4759 is still readily available. I bought 3, 1/2-pound cans just recently. I asked for it at a Bass Pro shop and although they didn't have any at the time, the guy behind the counter showed me a printout that indicated that it was to come in with the next order. The place where I did buy it told me he has some customers who come in once a week to buy it.

The Speer manual has loads for .303 using this powder.

Offline Jack Crevalle

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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2004, 01:50:45 AM »
Quote from: Iowegan
The old SR 4759 was designed for reduced loads in rifles. It worked wonderful in all cartridges I ever tested. It's a bulky powder that ignites pretty slow.  I haven't seen 4759 on the shelves for quite some time so I'm not sure it's still in production.


SR 4759 is still readily available. I bought 3, 1/2-pound cans just recently. I asked for it at a Bass Pro shop and although they didn't have any at the time, the guy behind the counter showed me a printout that indicated that it was to come in with the next order. The place where I did buy it told me he has some customers who come in once a week to buy it.

The Speer manual has loads for .303 using this powder.

Offline Larry Gibson

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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2004, 03:39:18 PM »
Donna

"LMG-

What handloader number did you get the information out of that you presented to us about catastrophic failure (formerly S.E.E.)?
Donna[/quote]"

The article, "Mystery Solved", can be found in Handloader #187, June-July 1997.

Larry Gibson