7.7 Japanese rifle

[ggraham]

I pulled granddads trophy out of the closet the other day and am wondering if it is okay to shoot.  Preliminary cleaning shows good bluing, full stock not split or splintered.  Bore looks very sharp and clean.  Discovered from internet search that the chamber and bore are chrome lined, the action while crudely finished is actually stronger than most.  I've ordered up some NORMA cartridges.

I'm just wandering if there is something else I should be looking for before I pull the trigger?  Has anyone eles had experience with these rifles?  What should I be expecting?

[Robert357]

I have a friend I work with who has a 7.7 and a 6.5.  The 6.5 mm is rimmed so it headspaces on the rim.  The 7.7 headspaces on the shoulder!  You can make brass out of trimmed 30-06 or 8x57 mm empty cases.  However, I applaud your decision to strart out by purchasing Norma Ammo.

If the cost gets to you try reloading.  Graff & Sons has unprimed brass for about $27/100 empty cases.

The following is a shade tree mechanic discussion of using scotch tape as a headspacing guage along with some informtion on accuracy and reloading.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2141

I hope it helps and good luck!

[S.S.]

The Jap.......ANese (Gotta be politically correct) were
masters at Sabotage and booby traps. Have a very competent
gunsmith check the weapon before firing it!   I have seen
and heard of a number of war trophies blowing up or worse
when fired.  My neighbor had a close call with a type 99.
The firing pin had been "Extended" to puncture the primer when
fired and the little gas relief hole (some didn't even have this) had been soldered closed. Needless to say, several thousand PSI of gas
came back in his face. Another rifle had a small hole bored through
the barrel angling backward just in front of the chamber.
The hole was filled with Laquer and you could not even tell it was there
until the Jet of Flame parted your hair and removed your eye-brows.
Another trick was to bore a small hole just ahead of the chamber throat
and insert a pin that barely protruded into the bore then re-blue.
Upon firing, the bore was obstructed and BOOM!!!
They were and are smart little boogers!!!
So at the very least tie it to a tree or old car tire and pull the trigger with a string the first time then inspect the cartridge case and the rifle
for anything Wierd!!

[alpini]

In addition to tying the rifle up to an old tire and stringing the trigger, check that the serial numbers match the bolts numbers. If they don't, chances are the headspace is off. Reloading for the Jap rifles are the way to go, I've had very good accuracy with mine.

[His lordship.]

When I was a poor college student I went nutso in buying and collecting Type 38 and Type 99 rifles.  Had 10 of them, as well as accessories and bayonets.  I had to handload for them using the NORMA brass that was available due to cost, did alot of shooting with those guns.  I have also shot some of the military surplus ammo too, that is hotter stuff than the sporting loads, but I found it to be very accurate.

When ever I bought a new Arisaka I would check it very carefully, and then fire a first shot with my face and upper body pulled as far away as possible from the gun, bench it and site it down range initially.  Then check the condition of the fired case and the gun again.  I Did not have any problems, as the action is notoriously strong, I felt it was a good first handloaders gun in case I made any mistakes.

I did have an early Type 99 that had what is called a "duffle bag cut" on the stock.  This rifle seemed ok when I bought it, but when it was fired the stock came loose up front, and slid forward.  The stock had been intentionally cut with a saw to get the unit into a duffle bag for the trip home by the receiving GI.  You could not see the cut through the wood as the forward sling mount hid this.  It had been an estate purchase, and the owner obviously had not shot it since 1945.  I tried various glues, which did not work.  If you get one with this condition, you could restock it, which is what I did, or ask a gunsmith for help.

I have heard of people having problems with these rifles, but the stories are very rare, and I have not been able to verify any of them.  The real late war guns had some softer steel used, but as a collector I never was able to find one to purchase for my collection.  Most of the type 99s available seem to be from 1942-1944 period.  I had a later model that was real budget, rough machined, welded peep site, covered with tool marks, no cleaning rod, wooden butt plate, etc, this gun was in new condition mechanically, and the first 150 rounds the inside chamber had a rough spot that would scratch my brass, and you had to wiggle the bolt 2-3 times to chamber a cartridge, but eventually it all worked itself smooth during the break in period.

[Shorty]

Since nobody else has picked up on the statement that 7.7 Jap can be formed from .30-06 cases, I'm adding my 2 cents.  
Although many war trophies were re-chambered to .30-06, they are not safe (they won't even feed from the magazine).  The base of the .30-06 is quite smaller than the 7.7 and case ruptures/ gas leaks are to be expected.  
Make sure that any 7.7 has NOT been reamed to .30-06 before shooting.

[ggraham]

Thanks for all the input.  I've figured out that I have a series 31 made in Toyo Kogyo.  All the #'s match, bolt, firing pin, and receiver.  I can't find any signs of tampering with the chamber or bore.  I will tie the rifle down and fire the first round from a distance though.  I received the ammo the other day and did a quick chamber measurement putting tape over the cartridge base until the bolt had difficulty closing and the imprint of the firing pin hole was present.  I think the chamber is large, as are most military, I measured 0.023" space bet. bolt head and cartridge base.  All my previous reloading has been with rimmed cases (.303, .357)  Is this a safe amount to stretch a rimless case on first fire?  I'd only neck size after.

[Japlmg]

99 plus percent of all the Japanese rifles that have "blown up" were in fact blank only trainers, that were fired with live ammo. Trainers often have case iron receivers and or bolt bodies.
I have never seen a real Japanese T38 or T99 blown up.
There is a well documented story of a guy who rechambered his T38 (a 6.5mm rifle) to chamber the .308 Winchester cartridge. He took it to a gunsmith complaining it kicked too hard. Yes, he was pushing a 308 diameter bullet down a .266 diameter bore! Try that trick with any other military rifle. Hatcher, in Hatcher's Notbook, states the Japanese Arisaka action was the strongest military bolt action rifle he ever tested.
The Japanese T38 and T99 rifles had excellent ruptured case gas vent holes on the top of the receiver.
7.7x58 Japanese cases are best made fron 8mm mauser brass, as the Mauser brass is just a couple thousands on a inch smaller at the base than is the 7.7x58 case.
Regards, Gregg

[His lordship.]

In my collection I did have a nicely made early production trainer.  In general it looked and felt like a real Type 38 rifle, but the stock was one piece, and the receiver was cast iron.  The inside bore was roughly machined, and a  smooth bore.  The gun dealer that sold it to me did label it as a trainer, "do not fire ammo in it", etc.  I tried to chamber a round into it, and it would not go in...I knew better than to shoot it though had the cartridge actually chambered! :eek:

Later I traded it for a Carcano, and the guy who received it from me must have later felt bad about the deal as each success gun show that I went to I continued to see it and they must have been dropping it on the floor, etc. as the wood got all gouged up, and obviously abused.  When it was in my possession it was really nice, I did a partial reblue, and the wood was waxed up and looking great.  As this trainer rifle was made in the early part of the 20th century, it had some historical value.  Some people don't realize that we don't really own old guns, we are temporary caretakers.  No need to abuse them.