Author Topic: Air travel with MLs and Blackpowder (Read 1482 times)

tundragriz · « **on:** June 15, 2004, 07:13:54 AM »

Wondering if it is possible to fly with blackpowder? I will be using my flintlock in New Mexico this September but I have never attempted to fly with blackpowder, possible? I travelled many times with a centerfire and ammo but am not sure of the regs for blackpowder.

If you can't fly with BP, how are you handling it?

Trapper-Jack · « **Reply #1 on:** June 15, 2004, 07:55:13 AM »

I have not flown with black powder, but I understand from other sources that the answer is definately NO! You can get away with transporting your black powder weapons by air, but you will have to find a powder source once you are back on the ground or make arangements to have it available in advance.

jgalar · « **Reply #2 on:** June 15, 2004, 10:48:29 AM »

No!!! And don't try sticking it in your bag surrounded by underwear. It will be detected and you will be in deep do-do.

The Cast Bullet Kid · « **Reply #3 on:** June 15, 2004, 12:10:14 PM »

Jgalar is right on the money.
I am in air freight for a living and black powder is STRICTLY prohibited on aircraft.
IATA (Intl. Air Transport Assc.) list it in their DGR (Dangerous Goods Regulations) with UN number UN0027, class 1.1D FORBIDDEN in all aircraft.

tundragriz · « **Reply #4 on:** June 15, 2004, 05:53:21 PM »

The regulations state that gun powder is prohibited, however, gun powder in the form of individual ammunition is allowed, I do it several times a year. If I carry my 45/70 with blackpowder shells it is no problem.

I checked and I can easily put 100gr of blackpowder by volume into my 300 ultra cases, lightly resize the neck and hand insert a bullet. Now I have ammuntion instead of gun powder.

I can put FFFF in one case and FF in 39 others.

jgalar · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2004, 02:35:01 AM »

tundragriz: Damn good idea! As long as your cartridges are in original containers or containers designed to hold cartridges they are legal. I would use original containers as most screeners are not shooters and get alarmed if the rounds are in any but original containers.

crow_feather · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2004, 10:37:25 AM »

tundragriz,

If you see your friend Jack in the airport, you don't yell out "Hi, Jack" cause airport people take things very seriously.

If you are caught trying to get around federal law ie; carry blackpowder in cartridge cases saying that your 300 Ultra is a black powder cartridge, you are messing with people who don't laugh at the small stuff.

You will go to jail. And advising others to break federal law on a chat room isn't too smart either.

Crow-feather

tundragriz · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2004, 02:05:34 PM »

Crow,
You may have gone a little dramatic on this one.

First, I am quite familiar with airport security. I might travel more in a given year on free frequent flyer miles than most people travel in a lifetime. Thats not counting the business miles I travel to earn them. ex. going back just 1 year I used free miles to hunt Alaska twice, Australia, and Mexico. Never had a problem with a TSA agent while carrying a handgun or rifle. They are quite reasonable people if treated with ordinary courtesy and respect. No reason to be afraid of them.

On a sidenote, a close friend and co-worker did a stint as a TSA training instructor (laid-off). Haven't seen him this week as he is either on vacation or travelling. I will get his take on this when he returns.

Regarding saying something about the 300 ultra case. I won't be saying anything about the 300 ultra, it won't be necessary, nothing will be asked about them. Some countries may count them for control purposes, some airlines may weigh them (max 11 pounds), a few international carriers will not allow them in the gun case, but none will ask about their appropriateness for a particular gun. Will it make you feel better if I had said I was carrying the powder in my 45/70 cartridges. The 45/70 is a blackpowder cartridge. Problem is I cannot put 100gr. in the 45/70.

Regarding going to jail, a little over the top. It just doesn't happen for attempting to carry a prohibited item in checked luggage. Do you have any idea how many prohibited items are confiscated each day. Everything from carrying too many butane lighters, unemptied white gas bottles by backpackers, outboard motors for having gas fumes, loose shells, signal flares (personal experience). They are simply taken, no threats of jail time.

You go to jail when you give them reasonable belief that you may be making a deliberate attempt to bring down the aircraft. This doesn't quite come up to that standard. They may not laugh at the small stuff but I don't sweat the small stuff.

Regarding the breaking of a federal law. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I will be more than happy to read any regulations, other than opinion, showing this is illegal. By contrast, IMO, I feel I am closely complying with the law for legally transporting ammunition in an aircraft. I am packaging it exactly as the regulations state for carrying ammunition. The fact it is not in somebody's idea of correct caliber does not matter. The law does not say the ammunition has to fit the gun you are carrying or that you even have to have a gun for that matter. I can carry any ammunition I want within quantity limits and packaging specs.

Regarding the chat room comment. There are a lot of things written in chat rooms that I don't agree with. I just get over it. This isn't a chat room but forums are for asking questions, having discussions, and sharing knowledge. Some people feel forums are for proving their intelligence to others rather than providing useful information. What they don't realize is the fact that they respond to posts without useful information says more than they think.

For those that may be inclined to follow my advice in this post solely based on the fact that I said it was OK, this is for you:

Disclaimer: It is not my intention in any manner or fashion to persuade anyone to follow my thoughts in this post. Please do not rush out to an airport with blackpowder in cartridge cases telling the security agents it is OK because tundragriz said it was.

Link to TSA ammunition site:

http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1666.xml

Looking at the bigger picture. Does this in anyway jeopardize anyone's safety? Absolutely, positively, in no way shape or form. Put blackpowder in an spent primer brass case topped with a copper and lead bullet, drop it off the tallest building, throw it as hard as you can against concrete, hit it with a hammer, run over it with a vehicle, it tain't gonna go off. It is safer than the primed centerfire smokeless round. These have been used safely in military and field conditions for 100+ years.

Sorry for the long post.

crow_feather · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2004, 03:34:54 PM »

tundragriz,

You might be right about going overboard a bit.

But I was on the other side for quite a few years. I spent a lot of time working with people who disregarded their safety and the safety of others to save some time and a few dollars.

I also hate to fly on planes. Can't stand them since I was in a terrible storm aboard a flight on my way to Southeast Asia.

Centerfire ammunition exploding in a fire will not penetrate a fireman's coat. Black powder filled cartridge cases are just little pipe bombs.

People who accidently take something dangerous aboard an airplane are given the benefit of the doubt as there is no intent to endanger the other passengers. A person who deliberately intends to smuggle a half pound of an explosive aboard an airplane is in a different league.

Get the idea.........accident vs. intention to smuggle explosives on board.

One is an accident, the other is a crime. And yes, I would throw your tushy in jail if you smuggled a half pound of explosives on the airplane I was flying on.

If four people going on a black powder hunt take your advice, that would be two pounds of explosives in the belly of the plane. You can fly on that one.

One last thing, if you truely believe that what you are doing is no big thing, stand up in the middle of your next flight and tell everybody you snuck a half-pound of explosives on their flight.

C F

rickyp · « **Reply #9 on:** June 20, 2004, 04:44:52 PM »

crow-feather,
While B.P. is considered a n explosive and smokeless powder is not ( along with pyrodes 777, and other B.P. Subs.)

a shell full of 100 grs of B.P. with a snug fitting bullet is not an mini pipe bomb, It will simply push the bullet out ant the remaining powder will ignite.
Yes a cinterfire round could penetrate a "fireman's coat" under the right conditions. A fire fighters turnout coat is not as thick as one might think. It has a very thin shell of PBI (or nomex) then it has a paper thin vapor barrier and then quilt liner. the turnout coat is only .1615 thick.

A better alternative to taking true black powder in the "loaded" case would to use Pyrodex.

crow_feather · « **Reply #10 on:** June 20, 2004, 07:42:11 PM »

rickyp,

A test was conducted where several turnouts were hung in a room with cases of ammunition. The room was set fire and after the fire burned out, the turnouts were inspected. Not one hole.
The test was conducted to determine if a fireman was in danger entering a burning room containing ammunition.

A 100 grain case with a .308 inch diameter hole will not let exploding black powder escape without rupturing the case. (Don't anybody try it to find out!) Please remember that the case with the "loose" bullet might be pressed into the floor with a couple hundred pounds of weight on top of it.

But I think that we are getting away from main point. Should anyone ever suggest to another person that they smuggle black powder onto an airplane? Should anyone ever say that a half pound of black powder in the baggage area of an airplane is safe? And when it comes to the lives of three hundred people, should we take the chance that there won't be an explosion should a primer ignite or a small fire start?

This should be a dead topic. There isn't one arguement that can be written to defend smuggling explosives onto an airplane. It is illegal, and it is dangerous.

Hunters worry about having a negative image. What do you think would happen should a disaster occur because of smuggled black powder, or a disaster occur and some hunter's black powder be found in the debri?

You see, you always have to figure what is the worst that can happen. Because someday it will.

C F

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #11 on:** June 21, 2004, 01:02:26 PM »

One of my co-workers hunts almost exclusively with black powder, takes several trips each year via commercial airlines to do so. He was told years ago to carry it in a made up cartridge form. He uses 45-90 (I believe) cases with spent primers, sized to just hold a bullet. He can pull the bullet out with a leatherman when he gets to his destination. The FAA told him to do this. Black powder cartridges are not considered in the same class as a loose powder. This is reiterating what was said earlier on this thread, but black powder cartridges are no more dangerous than smokeless rounds. A trailer fire I witnessed where the owner did a lot of reloading had bullets flying through the walls, so in a scenario with fire I don't really believe it matters one iota what is in the case. I know, as soon as the bullet is out of the case it's supposed to not do any damage, but what I saw belies that idea.

My $.02 worth...

-WH-

crow_feather · « **Reply #12 on:** June 21, 2004, 05:15:10 PM »

Winter Hawk,
I just got off the phone with James Berk of the FAA (if you want the phone no. send me a pm). He stated that you may carry ammo on the plane for personal use - HOWEVER attempting to smuggle explosives on board an airplane will give you up to 5 years and the loss of up to $250,000.00. Putting black powder in black powder cases with the exterior of the box marked "Black Powder Cartridges" is definitely not trying to smuggle. But putting black powder into ammunition where it was not an origonal load and where it is not intended as a reload is illegal. And you can be arrested and the rest of your life ruined once they put you in a cell with Bubba. (appologies to anyone named Bubba)

People will do what they please, and should something go wrong, I'm sure that they will find someone else to blame. But can you imagine how stupid your friend is going to sound telling the judge that the FAA told him that it was O K to smuggle explosives on a plane?

rickyp · « **Reply #13 on:** June 22, 2004, 02:21:02 AM »

crow-feather,
I know this is a little off the topic.
I personal have been in several fires when rounds started to "cook off".
All fire fighters are pulled out of the house and master streams are places in service. once the fire is under control we reenter the house. I have seen where bullets have passed trough the drywall and split the 2x4 stud.

Mind you it has to be just the right condition or will not happen but it has

as i stated before pyrodex is considered to be a smokeless powder and not an explosive so it should be a better alternative to true B.P.

crow_feather · « **Reply #14 on:** June 22, 2004, 08:24:53 AM »

rickyp,

I was once - many years ago - a firefighter. And when we were told that there was a large amount of ammunition in a room, we stayed out.

There really was a test and that is how it worked out. But I believe that the ammo was in wood cases such as would be found in a warehouse fire.

And I agree, pyrodex is considered a flammable and not an explosive.

C F

rickyp · « **Reply #15 on:** June 22, 2004, 10:47:44 AM »

crow-feather,

I have been a fire fighter for over 18 years, I have watched the turnout coats go from a heavy treated canvas to nomex then now to PBI every few years the thermal protection gets better and the turnouts get thinner and lighter. Right now they are like a heavy sweater with a little thicker wind breaker.

I have heard of the test but no one I have ever talked to could produce the results or even the testing procedure or when it was preformed.

When we fly under normal conditions the B.P. or shells pose little hazards to any passengers. If they are stored and labeled correctly you will have little to no chance of hazards now if the plain goes down or a fire starts in the cargo hold the story is different, but the passengers and crew have a lot more to worry about then rounds cooking off or 7 or 8 "mini pipe bombs" going off.

crow_feather · « **Reply #16 on:** June 22, 2004, 12:40:40 PM »

rickyp,

I remember reading the story on the test. I believe that it was in Guns and Ammo, or Shooting Magazine, but am not sure as it was a long time ago. And I am sure that materials have gotten lighter since the test was made. I am guilty, it seems, of bringing the past to the future expecting all things to be the same.

Smuggling black powder onto a plane is illegal. Whether it is safe or not is a moot point - it is illegal. You can be fined and go to jail. There is no argument on that point.

Is it safe? It is safe only until something ignites it. Then it places you in a new category of criminal. Remember though, that law enforcement officials do not know that you are the nice family man that is just trying to save a few bucks. Until you prove different, you are no better than any other terrorist smuggling explosives on a plane.

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #17 on:** June 29, 2004, 08:45:39 AM »

Quote

Putting black powder in black powder cases with the exterior of the box marked "Black Powder Cartridges" is definitely not trying to smuggle.

C-F, I think you have hit the nail on the head. .45-90 is a BP cartridge, so the box would be labeled that way. No smuggling, no, no, NO!

-WH-

crow_feather · « **Reply #18 on:** June 29, 2004, 06:18:59 PM »

Winter Hawk,

You are absolutely correct. But if something should go wrong, please tell folks that its the powder you were going to use in your Knight 97 Pumpkin Plinker in-line. :wink:

C F

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #19 on:** July 02, 2004, 03:23:54 PM »

Now iffen I had one of those, I'd be over on the in-line forum, wouldn't I? Gotta go home and sharpen my flint...

-WH-

tundragriz · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:46:05 PM »

Just an update,

On a recent trip I personally spoke with a TSA Training Instructor that was knowledgeable in firearms. His response was that he saw nothing wrong with transporting small arms blackpowder cartridges as long as they met the criteria mentioned in the earlier posts.

I also wrote to Goex powder and received this response yesterday:

"Thanks for your inquiry. It is legal to fly with cartridges loaded
with black powder. You are not allowed to fly with powder in cans or in a
powder horn such as you would use with a muzzleloader. Loaded cartridges are acceptable..."
he then went on to describe specific trips taken with blackpowder cartridges.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** July 14, 2004, 02:00:16 PM »

There's a good article in the august Petersen's Hunting magazine called "No Fear of Flying" by Dick Metcalf for hunters who fly to their huntin' grounds. Tim