Author Topic: Railroad Rails ----Danger?  (Read 1314 times)

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Offline chunter

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Railroad Rails ----Danger?
« on: May 13, 2004, 10:53:48 AM »
Hey all,  our range is in the process of acquiring a whole bunch of railroad rails.  These seemed to be a great answer to many of the problems that people face with lighter and flimsier stands.  HOwever after doing some more research, it appears that there is a risk of ricochet  coming back at the shooter do to the shape of the rail.   Have any of you ever seen this?  Is this really a valid risk?  What do you recommend that would easily fix the rail to stop this from happening?

Thanks for your help

Offline nomad

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Railroad Rails ----Danger?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2004, 11:53:03 AM »
Chunter,

I've never seen a problem at 40m or more -- even at clubs where the rails are perpendicular to the ground and don't deflect downward.

(Our club used to shoot a fun match with 25 yd chickens and there was some bounce-back there so we changed that match.)

However, if you welded a plate onto the rail at 40 and 60 to deflect low shots toward the ground, you ought to resolve any 'potential' problems. (I'd guess you could do the same at 75 and 100 but I can't even imagine anything bouncing that far.)
E Kuney

Offline Double D

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Railroad Rails ----Danger?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2004, 01:01:05 PM »
We just kept a wideberm of dirt up to the bottom of the front of the rail and a drop at the back.

No ricochets.

Offline Mongo1

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Protect the rails!
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2004, 04:03:24 PM »
You absolutely should provide some protection for the rails at anything under 100 meters and it is probably a good idea to do so at 100 meters as well.  I do not recall whether the NRA put something in the rule book actually requiring that the rails be protected or merely suggests it, but it is something I would recommend that you do...along with requiring eye protection in the immediate vicinity of the firing line.    
 
Old railroad ties or dirt or something.  I have personally observed bullet back splatter at a variety of ranges under a variety of circumstances.  I have also seen it coming off of a range where what was being shot at were turkeys (77 meters) and rams (100 meters) and I could not say specifically which distance the back splatter came from, but it is real.  The chickens in the hunter pistol game were moved back to 40 meters from 25 specifically because of back splatter.  I have seen people hit by it.  I have been hit by it.  I have seen people bloodied by it and I have seen people whose glasses were damaged by it.  Fortunately, I think that there is probably less of it in smallbore rifle than in smallbore hunter's pistol because of differences in the targets, but it does exist.

Offline nomad

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Railroad Rails ----Danger?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2004, 05:05:25 PM »
Mongo,

Hadn't ever heard of that problem. We use rr iron at the ram line and there is another range we shoot regularly that uses it for P,T,R -- and probably would for chickens except those stands must be removed when matches aren't in progress. No problems there either that I'm aware of.

That said, maybe I'm not as up to speed as I'd thought and we might need to rethink our own range setup. (We do currently require both hearing and eye protection and the face plates on our resets are angled...although that was done primarily to absorb impact and lessen the chance of vibration drops.)

I'd like to talk with the match director where these problems occurred so that I can find out what differences there are between his facility and ours. If you would provide contact information, it would be appreciated.

Mny thx
E Kuney

Offline Mongo1

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Backsplatter
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2004, 06:53:08 PM »
E,
 
One of the clubs that had the worst problem was the (now defunct) FW R&P.  At the Hunter's Pistol Nationals there several people were injured.  Many more were struck.  Although the worst of it was during the centerfire, it happened during smallbore as well.  In my *opinion* the difference in the way the HP animal reacts (because of its mass) is a factor which probably contributes to the problem of back splatter off of the animals more than with smallbore rifle animals, but it was coming off of the rails as well.  Not only were people on the firing line struck, but people behind the firing line.  
 
I have observed back splatter elsewhere on an occasional basis.  Part of the difference between club matches and larger matches is that the firing line is typically crowded at larger matches, meaning that anything which comes back at the right height is probably going to hit someone, and there is more lead going downrange.  
 
I have not kept up with which ranges are more troublesome than others, but the potential for back splatter is there no matter what the circumstance.  "Protecting" the rails simply reduces the likelihood of it occurring (by a substantial amount in my opinion).  
 
Chunter is wise to ask the question.  It is best to do what he can to reduce the probability of it occurring from the outset and to do what can reasonably be done to reduce the chances of a serious injury (as in eyes) by requiring the wearing of eye protection.  
 
The NRA has planted their heads in the sand over this issue for a great many years, despite the fact that IHMSA (by national rule) requires the wearing of eye protection.  By the way, each and every IHMSA club and event is covered by NRA's insurance program as they join for that express purpose so don't be fooled by the people at the NRA or on the Silhouette committee crying wolf about lawyers and so on and yada, yada, yada.  The silhouette committee did not understand the matter then (even when confronted by a competitor who had been struck in by a piece of bullet over the pupil of his (dominant) shooting eye which left a "nick" in the lens .  He said "I would be blind in this eye right now if I had not been wearing shooting glasses") and probably does not to this day.    
 
How important is one's vision?  
 
I am not questioning your belief that your club does not have a problem in asking this question, but how do you actually know that you do not have back splatter?  Is it that no one has reported being struck?  That does not necessarily mean that it is not happening.  
 
Under the right circumstances it can happen and so I believe that Chunter's question and the precautions he is likely to implement are, in my opinion, worth the small effort when weighed against the potential consequences of the one that has everything go wrong in the right sequence.  
 
As you may recall, a fine young man was killed in the metroplex (at the Dallas R&P if I recall correctly)  at a sanctioned pistol match because people failed to follow their own rules and were aware of the problem that resulted in his death.  
 
Safety requires constant vigilance.  
 
You will have to judge the suitability of the precautions taken at your range.  
 
Regards

Offline chunter

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Fixes,
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2004, 06:02:11 AM »
Well after reading,  it appears the NRA says that it could be a possible danger.   So in an effort to circumvent safety problems,  I think that I would like to try and weld a downward facing plate to the front of the rail.  or put a piece of angle iron on the front of the rail.  

Big thanks to Nomad and Mongo on the info.

Here are my ideas,  any help is appreciated

http://cc.usu.edu/~chunter/deflectors.htm

Offline cslcAl

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Railroad Rails ----Danger?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2004, 06:59:09 AM »
We use rail on both our HP and SB ranges. What we did was lay telephone poles in front of the rail on the chicken sets for HP and oak 4x6's for the SB. They have been this way for years, and we have never had a problem.  

Al

Offline JimInNJ

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Railroad Rails ----Danger?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2004, 04:26:49 AM »
I have knocked a few splinters off of those telephone poles at CSLC.  :wink:


Offline cslcAl

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Railroad Rails ----Danger?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2004, 01:24:21 PM »
Jim,    Great picture! This shows how a HP range should be. Rams do live on mountains. You'll have to come up and check out our new SB range. WE are hosting the Pa State match in Sept.
Al Foust

Offline RPbump

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RR Tracks for target stands
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2004, 07:47:27 AM »
Our local club has used RR tracks for many years with  hardened steel (armor plate) welded on the front of the rail to deflect low rounds into the dirt. "No problems with backsplash" Rbump

Offline Jerry G

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RR rails
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2004, 10:20:16 AM »
Cranbrook BC has RR rails on their sides with pads welded on for the animals.  I love shooting there when it rains.  Every time you hit an animal the lead spatter hits the water and it looks neat thru the scope.  

I have shot at a lot of ranges and never have known anyone that has been hit by anything except BS.  It is soft and doesn't hurt.