Author Topic: Breech seating 357 (Read 904 times)

Awf Hand · « **on:** June 23, 2004, 07:37:15 AM »

I made a solid brass plug .357" in diameter (body) and .350" at the tip which looks like a long cartridge. I trimmed a 357 Maximum case to be the longest length it can be and still chamber. The flash-hole was deburred and the cartridge was loaded with 11.9 Grains of H-108 (similar to Acc #9) A 1/8" thick floral foam wad was pushed in the mouth of the case to make contact with the powder.
I took my seating tool and pushed a 160 grain SWC (H&G mould, 164.0gr, as cast) bullet into the rifling to a point where the rifling cuts extended to within 1/16" from the back of the bullet. I proceeded to take 5 shots and I had a group of just over 3/8" with my last 3. The first 2 shots were from a clean bbl and made my measured group about 7/8" at 50 yards. The process was repeated four more times and the groups together averaged .55", all at 50 yards. ( I didn't have 100yds to work with) A light leading was noticed just ahead of the throat area after 25 shots.
All shots were fired from the same cartridge case, which was indexed to match a mark on the back of the bbl. -Rapid fire, this ain't.
This type of loading method is done in Schuetzen and has provided some of the best flat-based cast lead bullet accuracy available.

Is there anybody else here as goofy as I am? I'm curious about making a lever-type seater that is easier to use.

Or did I just make a lot of brows furrow for no reason...

handirifle · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2004, 10:09:28 AM »

awf hand
All I can say is WOW! Looks like you figured out the weak spot on the .357 accuracy issues. Others have gone a similar, though simpler, route by using dan wesson cases. They are halfway between the .357 mag and 357 max length.

How hard did you have to push the case in to set the bullet in that deep?

Does this create any pressure problems?

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2004, 11:27:16 AM »

If I understand this correctly, you shoved a bullet into the rifling, then put a charged case with overwad into the chamber for propellant?

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2004, 04:22:55 PM »

this is old news, back from the mid '80's, we would make sure our bullets engaged the rifling. the case was barely neck-sized and the bullet was pretty much finger tight in the neck. before placing the cartridge into the rifle, we would pull the bullet out as far as possible before it would fall out. when it was chambered, the bullet would hit the rifling. this did help with grouping.

sg

Awf Hand · « **Reply #4 on:** June 24, 2004, 03:30:41 AM »

Scattergunner,
It is indeed "old news". You (hopefully) are referring to the 1880's! This is the loading style that target competitors used during the time of Pope, Shoyen, Rowland et. al.

Mitch, your are understanding correctly.

The bullet is pushed (in this case driven) into the rifling and a charged case is put behind it. Non-Schuetzen friends of mine cringe to think that I intentionally create a bbl obstruction, then blast it out. A person needs to know what they're doing. I've fired 1000's of rounds of .32 Miller Short as well as 32-40Win all in this style of breech seating. The charges are different from what you use with a fixed load, but accuracy is outstanding. This is a lead bullet practice only. The closer to pure lead, the better... At the loading I'm using, I am seeing no pressure signs.

Nobody knows of a breech seater design for the NEF? I had a design though last night, I will go ahead and keep you all posted.

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #5 on:** June 24, 2004, 10:23:45 AM »

Quote from: Awf Hand

Nobody knows of a breech seater design for the NEF? I had a design though last night, I will go ahead and keep you all posted.

All I can think of is a bolt, 2 nuts, and a mallet. I suppose the nut which hits the barrel should be brass or nylon. Or maybe lay a flat washer across the breech and tap the bolt/nuts down until the nut hits the washer.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2004, 11:48:45 AM »

Doesn't sound to me like you need anything more complicated than a short starter for a muzzleloader. You could build some adjustment in if you had a mind to, but a 2" wood ball with a nut inlaid into it, a brass washer for a facing and the right length of brass rod sticking out should be all you need.

I buy bags of unfinished turnings at craft stores for stuff like this. Big bag is only a couple of bucks and provides me with several years worth of handles for shop gizzies.

Cue ball would work fine, too, and give your bullet jack a touch of class.

Awf Hand · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2004, 03:15:55 AM »

The assembly of crap that I'm using now consists of the brass plug (with a rim turned onto the end) that is long enough to push the bullet fully into the rifling. I start by dropping the bullet into the chamber. Next using a sawed-off hickory handle hammer handle, I push the bullet as hard as I can into the throat. -It doesn't go far. The dead-blow hammer comes out next and the hickory handle is thumped until the case is almost flush with the rim groove on the back of the chamber. The action is snapped closed, which seats the bullet the last couple hundreths of an inch.
While this all sounds fine and dandy, I want a lever system that will be easier to use. Not to mention how much the lead bullets are distorted by multiple impacts of the hammer/plug. What I've come up with is another scope rail-type block on the side of the bbl, just above of where the action meets it. This will have a flat, square edge on the front that will act as the "hook receiver". My lever will have one hinge, and the handle will extend, transverse to the bore, across the side opposite the hook receiver. With a long enough handle, the push should be easy. If there are interested parties here, I can try to learn how to post pictures of the device once I've built it...

handirifle · « **Reply #8 on:** June 25, 2004, 07:40:24 AM »

They really used to go through all that? Seems like an awful lot of work to me.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #9 on:** June 25, 2004, 07:57:04 AM »

Quote from: handirifle

They really used to go through all that? Seems like an awful lot of work to me.

They really used to go though all that and more. This ain't nothing compared to loading the bullet from the front using a false muzzle.

But they also shot records with plain lead bullets that stood up against jacketed bullets for 50 years and the 200 yard benchrest record may still be standing.

handirifle · « **Reply #10 on:** June 25, 2004, 08:13:04 AM »

How does one know if they are "cramming" the bullet in straight. Seems to go against all they teach now about trimming case necks for uniforminity etc. Seems like all the rest is a waste of time now.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #11 on:** June 25, 2004, 01:08:21 PM »

If the bullet is a good fit to the throat and leade and the base is square and the bullet jack is a good fit to the chamber and square, the bullet has nowhere to go but straight in.

Don't worry about the theory. Practice for over 100 years has shown this works.

I might worry a little about that floral foam, though. We ain't been using IT for 100 years.

JPH45 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 25, 2004, 01:34:42 PM »

There are people still shooting Schutzenfest matches, which are dominated by rifles fired using breech seating bullet techniques. The lever the Awf Hand is seeking is standard equipment on such rifles, (usually falling blocks) and have a "hook" on the side of the action which a link on the breech seating tool is hooked into, the bullet seated, the tool removed from the gun, the case inserted and fired. No big deal. Schutzenfest is a fairly rare form of target shooting today, but was in the 1880's and 1890's a primary form. It is normally fired standing and began to fall from favor as high velocity smokeless rifles began to overtake the BP technology of the day and what we know as benchrest began to dominate target shooting competition.

Adolf Coors Beer for a time sponsored matches, but the matches were protesed by the locals for some assinine reason I can't at present recall, and what was a resurgance of a fine shooting style and competition suffered badly as a result. I'm sure a Google search would turn up some interesting info. JP

Awf Hand · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2004, 07:42:25 AM »

JPH 45,

A BIG factor in the decline of the Schuetzenfest was anti-German sentiment during the wars. Jacketed, more consistant bullets also began breaking the records set by the cast bullets in the 1800's through the 1910's. They grabbed for the smokeless powder in the 1920's as soon as the "kinks" had been worked out. The Schuetzen game is played with singleshot rifles as well - not single shot bolts or the like, but specifically falling blocks, rolling blocks, martini's, etc. I've never seen anybody using a break bbl until our shoot this weekend in Eau Claire, WI. A shooter had taken an NEF shotgun action and fitted a bbl chambered in 32-40. He'd welded the lug on the otherside and was shooting fairly well using a palm-push style seater. We chatted a bit and it sounds like we'd both arrived at the same design for a lever type seater. He'll have his built first, no doubt, as I've been meeting myself leaving as I'm getting home most days...

Coors dropped it's sponsorship, not because of local protests, but because they hired a new promotions director and she is an anti-gun type.
Budwieser picked up the sponsorship for our activities, but has since dropped us in favor of putting more bucks into the racing program. Currently, Hodgdon Powder is our big supporter, and I can't say enough good things about them.

Anyway, I'll keep you all informed about the craziness I'm living with this 357 Handi when I get more pieces to play with.
3000 rounds and counting...

Dean