cast bullets in 30/30

[floydrturbo]

I would like to try cast bullets in my Marlin 336 30/30. If it makes any difference, it has a micro groove barrel. I have no casting or sizing equipment and do not wish to buy any. Several companies sell cast and lubed bullets .309 diameter with no gas checks. Can I use these bullets without gas checks? Would non gas checked loads have to be low velocity?I have loaded straight walled cases with cast bullets and these die sets come with a die to bell the case mouth, my 30/30 dies have no such die. How do you seat bullets without shaving lead? Any load suggestions for non gas checked loads either full power or reduced loads?

[Leftoverdj]

Yes, plain based bullets must be low velocity. Bell the case a little with any handy tapered object or buy the Lee Universal Expanding Die. .309 diameter may work, but get .310 if you can find them. 7.0 grains of Unique is a good bet for 150-170 grain bullets.  If you don't have Unique, try 6.5 grains of any fast pistol powder you do have, 231, Bullseye, 700x, Red Dot, etc.

[Nobade]

I'd measure the bore before you buy any bullets. My 336 needs bullets to be at least .312" or it's useless. Most/many microgroove barrels are suprisingly large, which is where I think they get a bad rep for cast bullet shooting. If the bullet fits they will shoot. Of course remove every bit of copper first or you're wasting your time.

[haroldclark]

Oh yes.  Micro-grooved barrel matters not.  Order 500 bullets from Laser Cast (Oregon Trail Bullet Company) at (800) 811-0548 in Baker, Oregon.

They are very nice people to do business with.  They supply a 165 grain cast with a bevel base.  I have not been able to get it to shoot in any 30 caliber gun I own.

However, they have a 170 grain with a gas check shank.  They are already lubricated and just need the gas check added.  The only item you would need for that is a Lee 310 Sizer that fits on your regular loading press.   You buy gas checks from Midway or one of the other suppliers.  I use Hornady checks because they are about 6 to 7 dollars less than all others and Hornady makes all of the other brands.

Gas checking the bullets is a very simple process and quite quick.

Now you need to order one other item called a Lyman M-die.  This little device is the cast bullet shooters best friend.  It will expand the case mouth large enough to slide the bullet in about 1/8th inch and then seat it.  It can be set to bell the mouth if your wish, but there is no need for the bell.  The bullet will stay in until you seat it.  If you bell the mouth, you have to get a factory crimp die from Lee to close the baby back up with using the Roll Crimp that is present in most 30-30 dies.

Now add 20 grains of Alliant Reloader #7 powder behind this bullet and you have a great shooting load.  I have 5 shooting friends that have taken to using this load and they are all very happy shooting out to 200 meters.  We shoot 200 meter steel targets standing.

I shoot mine a bit further in my Marlin Cowboy.  It is a deadly load in my Winchester 94 too.  Three other guys use Marlins with the Micro-groove barrel.

Another fine load for even lighter work and much fun is the same bullet with 9 grains of IMR SR 7625.  I know, you probably never heard of the powder, but it is very real and very accurate.

I shot a bunch of that load in a Marlin Micro-groove barrel and 1.5" groups were the rule of the day at 100 yards.

Harold Clark

[jgalar]

I would buy bullets in lower quantities than 500 until you find one your gun likes.

I would install gas checks even if you are shooting low velocity because I seldom get good results from a bullet with a gas check base without one. It depends if the store bought bullets are flat based or are made to have gas checks fitted.

I have the Lyman m dies, but prefer the Lee expander. You can use a taper punch to bell the mouth, but its a pain in the @ss.

My 336 is loaded with .309 bullets, but I am using a softer lead than the commercial stuff so they obturate to the bore.

The Lee bullet sizers are cheap and work well for seating the gas checks. They come with Liquid Alox lube which works well and since the sizers come with it you may want to try using the lubed bullets as they come and with them tumbled lubed also.

If the bullets are plain based I would still get some Liquid Alox. Its cheap.

Shooting lead is not the voodoo that some make it out to be. Be forewarned...you will probably change your mind about casting when you find out how well lead bullets work and how cheap it is to make bullets. When I figure the cost of loading cast bullets I don't even add the cost of the bullet.

[Chargar]

Buddy..There is lots of bad information out there on the use of cast bullets in Marlin 30-30 Microgroove barrels. I have done extensive testing and know for certain that a Marlin 30-30 Microgroove will shoot cast as well as it will shoot jacketed bullets. The accuracy limit is that of the rifle itself.

However....Bullet fit is far more important in Microgroove barrels that standard barrels. Micgrogroove  barrels usually run .310X.302 (grooves and lands) with the normal variations you find in barrels. Winchester and other 30 cal barrels usually run .308X.300 ( grooves and lands)again with the normal variations you find in production barrels. In other words Marlin Microgroove barrels runs at least .002 larger in both places that other makes.

This requires a bullet at least .311 on the body and .302-303 on the nose. While most bullet moulds will give you a bullet of 311 on the body, moulds that will give .302-303 on the nose are few and far between. Without proper support of the bullet nose on the lands, the nose will sag or accordion and very bad accuracy will result. If is for this reason that most "experts" prefer cast bullets with long bodies and short noses in Microgroove barrels.

SEACO makes a 180 FN bullet for the 303 British that is just the ticket for the Marlin Microgroove. The body can be sized .311 or .312 and the nose will cast at .303. Accuracy is outstanding with a good load.

In closing..unless you have a bullet of .311 or larger on the base and .302-303 on the nose, you are destined for mediorce accuracy at best in your Marlin Microgroove. These rifles can be very, very accurate with cast, but they do require different bullets than most 30-30's

I see lots of posts on these board about great accuracy with .309 cast bullet in the Microgroove barrel, but I am going to have to stand by the bench and see it to believe it.  There are lots of keyboard shooters out there in cyberspace, who get off on being the "expert" and will tell you all kinds of nonsense.

[Robert357]

This is a little off topic, but it is about basic lever action accuracy.  From what I have read, most lever actions can be surprisingly accurate rifles, if you treat them right.  I know that my Marlin 336 will out shoot a lot of fancy rifles at the range I go to, if I understand its limitations.

Specifically, one problem that comes up is that most level actions have a tubular magazine and that can impact accuracy.  Speficially, if you fill the magazine with bullets you are effectively hanging weights from the barrel at various distances.  You should not assume that a full magazine will have the same POI as a lever action with an empty magazine.  Similarly, you are compressing the tube spring with a full magazine.  Both the weight and spring will change the way the barrel vibrates and that will impact accuracy.

What that means for most of us is that if you only want to shoot at targets with high accuracy; a lever action should have at most one in the magazine and one in the barrel.  Once you have gotten a highly accurate load, then you can see how much and additional round in the magazine will impact your POI (accuracy) and determine what is acceptable from a hunting perspective for you, your skills and likely distance you want to shoot.

The point of this post is that in determining what cast bullet (or any) load shoots best in your rifle, you need to be consistent and not change the amount of ammo you have in your magazine.

[Chargar]

Thanks for your post about accuracy in levergun with tubular magazines. I read all sort of bunk about the accuracy folks get from leverguns. The truth of the matter that most carbine type leverguns with the metal bands and corsets are at best 2-3 MOA rifles. This can be cut in half with alot of gunsmithing such as beding the receiver tangs and relieving the metal bands. These stories about 1.5 MOA accuracy from stock carbines is just bunk. I don't doubt they have produced a few such groups, but they won't do it on demand and that is the true measure of accuracy.

My best stock 30-30 is a Marlin 336A. This is the 24" barrel, half magazine rifle. This rifle is a true 1.5 MOA rifle providing you don't heat the barrel and you don't load ammo from the magazine. Even with just one round in the magazine and this rifle's groups will open up .5" vertically. Fill the magazine and you can watch the bullets walk up he target with every round from the magazine.

[m14dan]

I don't have a 30-30 but my sons 336 35 rem has been on a steady diet of cast bullets for a few years. It loves them. Even at factory jacketed velocities. About 2000- 2300 fps. It''s a hog bustin steel target flippin awsome rifle! We use a rcbs 200 gr fp. My son has gotten a few deer, turkey and a hog with it and none of them lived long enough to complain about it. These guys are right about bullet fit in the barrel but I think more often than not the moulds from rcbs are pretty close already to what you will need. For the 35 and my 30 cal rcbs moulds I use a sizer that just barely touches them but gets the lube where it belongs.
Also I have found the microgroove cleans up real nicely. After a silhouette match or something where he shoots 50 to 100 rounds through it with no loss in accuracy the bore wipes out real nice And I have yet to find any leading.

[Cat Whisperer]

or: http://www.hunt101.com/img/170871-big.jpg

Here's a design GLENN LARSEN is putting together for an order to Lee to make 6 cavity moulds.  This is or is about the final drafting of the design.

(edited - sorry Glenn, I'm also doing a drawing for Ed in .45 cal).

[Thomas Krupinski]

Tim,  that looks nice.  Is that custom run going to be available to the public, and do you have any details on how to get in on it?

[Leftoverdj]

Email idahobronco@aol.com and ask to be put on the list for one (or more). When he has enough people to make an order, he'll tell you where to send the check.

I was in on Lar's last group buy deal and am completely happy. I suspect that this one will be a huge success since there is nothing on the market filling this niche. Plenty of GC designs, but very little in the way of cast 'em and shoot 'em plinkers. This may even turn out to be more than that. While limited in velocity due to the PB, it would not surprise me if this turns out to be a superlative 100 yard round in a variety of rifles.

[Cat Whisperer]

Tim,  that looks nice.  Is that custom run going to be available to the public, and do you have any details on how to get in on it?

Thanks, Tom.  Leftoverdj told you right - email Glenn and he'll fill  you in on the procedural details - 6 hole Lee Precision for about $41 or so.

[Lar45]

 
Hello over here.  I guess I should stop by once in awhile, it looks pretty busy here.
I"m Glenn/lar45
It looks like there will be pleanty of interest on this mold to do the run.  I'll start a new topic to discuss it with pics.  The price will be $41 includeing shipping to you.  It will be a Lee 6 cavity.  Any and all are welcome.  On the last C358-180RF custom order, I started with 25 molds, then it jumped to 35 and then to 45.  At that point LEE asked that I not increase the order anymore as it was messing with their regular production schedule.  So on this one, I'll collect checks, money orders... for 2 weeks, then put the order in with the amount that we will need.

[Cat Whisperer]

I think we're very close.

The following is a MINIMUM chamber (SAAMI specs. for 30-30):




The two sets of lines in the bore are .300 and .308 (minimum SAAMI dimensions, max being .302 and .310")

The one green vertical line is where the neck of the cartridge (OD) should fall. The two green vertical lines are the minimum and maximum cartridge lengths.

The bullet is slightly engaged into the throat - to a depth of .0010 inches (all around) at the point of tangency of the ogive and the .302 diameter of the nose (minimal).

[Robert357]

I have a question about the drawing.  First I think it explains a lot.  However, my question is based on something that I have read and tried to live up to in my limited cast bullet reloading.

I thought that the base of a cast bullet was not suppose to extend below the "neck" otherwise one could get gas cutting of the base and that would reduce accuracy.  In the drawing, the base of the bullet also doesn't appear to be reduced for a gas check.

In doing the drawing were those just little details that didn't get included or is the bullet designed this way?

If it is designed this way could I ask why?

[Leftoverdj]

This is a plain base design. No GC wanted or allowed for. I have never heard that PB designs must be contained within the neck although I am highly wary of GCs below the neck.

There are a bunch of us who are high volume shooters of light .30 cal loads. We are willing to swap the extra velocity attainable with a GC for the savings in time and money of not having to install the thing. Mostly, this bullet is being designed for the users of iron sighted lever action rifles for practice, plinking, and CAS. It ain't intended as a general purpose bullet, but as a bullet that will give reasonable accuracy to 1400-1600 fps in a variety of rifles and which can be quickly cast in huge numbers.

For most users, it will be a cast, tumble lube, and shoot proposition. Manufacturing tolerances being what they are, some may need to size, but that can be done in a $12 Lee pushthrough that mounts in a regular press.

[Cat Whisperer]

I have a question about the drawing.  First I think it explains a lot.  However, my question is based on something that I have read and tried to live up to in my limited cast bullet reloading.

I thought that the base of a cast bullet was not suppose to extend below the "neck" otherwise one could get gas cutting of the base and that would reduce accuracy.  In the drawing, the base of the bullet also doesn't appear to be reduced for a gas check.

In doing the drawing were those just little details that didn't get included or is the bullet designed this way?

If it is designed this way could I ask why?

Good questions, good answers by LeftoverDJ too.

A couple of additional points, the base band is inside the neck at this point and extends a bit below - but the lube grooves are not exposed to the powder area.  Also, the bullet could be extended forward further into the throat until the forward band touches the throat - and the entire bullte would be well within the neck.

This is a plinker, but with a short nose and lots of grooves along most of it's body it is, as has been pointed out, reminiscent of the Lovern design - which is one of the most accurate flavors made.