Author Topic: What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?  (Read 952 times)

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Offline Naphtali

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« on: June 26, 2004, 07:06:05 AM »
I have several questions pertaining to tin:lead bullet casting alloys in 1:15 or 1:20 ratios.

I specifically omit alloying with antimony or special heat treating of cast bullets.
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1. With no other load or lubricant changes from pure lead bulleted ammunition, does addition of tin to pure lead casting alloy result in more [bullet] metal deposit on ID of barrel, or less?

2. In addition to casting a harder alloy than pure lead, what effect has 1:15 or 1:20 tin:lead alloys on:

A. OD of cast bullet compared with same bullet cast from pure lead?

B. Change in velocity, or change in bullet’s ability to accept larger propellant charge, without losing accuracy?

C. Flux used?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline TennesseeNuc

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2004, 07:54:44 PM »
Naphtali,
Adding tin helps fill the mold better in addition to a slight hardening of the bullet.  Bullets cast with tin mold slightly larger than pure lead bullets.  I've never used any 20:1 bullets without gas checks, so I can't tell you how much more velocity you can get before leading with a plain based bullet.  I have never done this but I have read that if you cast with any more tin than 10:1 that you can actually tin your barrel.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
Best,
TnNuc

Offline FAsmus

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Re: What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2004, 09:42:14 AM »
Naphtali,

N: I have several questions pertaining to tin:lead bullet casting alloys in 1:15 or 1:20 ratios.

F: Anything richer than 30:1 is a waste of good tin.

N: I specifically omit alloying with antimony or special heat treating of cast bullets.

F:  Why?

Antimony stabilizes the bullets such that they will not slump or warp during storage as will lead/tin alloys over time. It is good stuff, never leave it out of a good bullet!

N: With no other load or lubricant changes from pure lead bulleted ammunition, does addition of tin to pure lead casting alloy result in more [bullet] metal deposit on ID of barrel, or less?

F: It depends on lots of things. Mainly, keep in mind that lead/tin alloys are ALL quite soft and all WILL lead after certain velocity levels are reached.

N: In addition to casting a harder alloy than pure lead, what effect has 1:15 or 1:20 tin:lead alloys on:

A. OD of cast bullet compared with same bullet cast from pure lead?

F: Very slightly larger.

B. Change in velocity, or change in bullet’s ability to accept larger propellant charge, without losing accuracy?

F: Forget it. You're limited by the general softness of all straight lead/tin alloy bullets. Any change will be too slight to make any difference at all. Get some antimony into the mix and go shooting!

C. Flux used?

F:  This is of little consiquence for all casting activity. Just use regular old olive oil and never look back.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Offline Naphtali

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2004, 08:27:26 AM »
Forrest:

The reason for limiting alloying material is the bullets are intended for muzzleloading rifles. I have a dilemma. Bullet must move/expand from its base to obdurate the rifling. But soft bullets tend to strip or smear lead along the bore.

Antimony solves one problem while creating an unsolvable one.

Tin, on th other hand, might reduce lead fouling without casting a bullet too hard to upset at its base.

A working number for breech pressure would be between 9000 psi and 14000 psi. Parenthetically, the highest operating pressure I have found for [one] black powder cartridge rifles is 28000 psi -- much higher than for loading from muzzle but still low by smokeless powder standards.

You mention olive oil as bullet lubricant. Would you stick with this regardless of temperature? If not, how or why would you change lubricant to reflect ambient temperature?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline FAsmus

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2004, 09:11:58 AM »
Naphtali,

Naphtail says:

The reason for limiting alloying material is the bullets are intended for muzzleloading rifles. I have a dilemma. Bullet must move/expand from its base to obdurate the rifling. But soft bullets tend to strip or smear lead along the bore. .

F:  Ah! I see!

N:  Tin, on the other hand, might reduce lead fouling without casting a bullet too hard to upset at its base.

F:  I think you will be happy with the softness of your bullets cast with tin to slightly increase hardness and to improve castability. The resulting slugs should remain plenty soft enough to upset into the rifling as your muzzel-loader requires, especially if you use one of the hollow-base designs.

N:  You mention olive oil as bullet lubricant. Would you stick with this regardless of temperature? If not, how or why would you change lubricant to reflect ambient temperature?

F:  Careful on the reading of post. I think I said olive oil as a fluxing agent! I use the stuff in a squirt oil can to put the right amount in the right place when the melt needs to be fluxed.

For greasing black powder ML bullets you will have to seek other folk's advice as I have no expierience to offer at all regarding the front-loader's needs.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Offline Naphtali

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2004, 07:39:47 AM »
FAsmus: It is delightful to correspond with you. Your clarity is refreshing and reassuring.

Having the knowledge that bullet is loaded from the muzzle, does your reference to alloying no more than one part tin to 30 parts lead remain accurate?

If I wanted to experiment with tin:lead ratio, how do I establish a baseline casting metal, then return to it before changing one variable? I have a Lee Production Pot.
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Apparently, dropping cast bullets from the mold into a pail of water — that is, water quenching — causes them to be significantly harder than bullets dropped to a soft damp towel — that is, air quenching. If this is true:

1. Does this occur with pure lead bullets as well as alloyed lead?

2. Stored one year at room temperature, does BHN of quench-hardened bullets change significantly? If yes, how?

3. If BHN of quench-hardened bullets changes, how do I stabilize at the higher BHN for storage more than one year?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline FAsmus

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2004, 10:49:09 AM »
Naphtali,

N:  It is delightful to correspond with you. Your clarity is refreshing and reassuring.

F: Thanks!

N:  Having the knowledge that bullet is loaded from the muzzle, does your reference to alloying no more than one part tin to 30 parts lead remain accurate?

F: Yes, 30:1 should be all the tin you'll ever need for this kind of use. More is not only unnecessary but wasteful; tossing good tin (money) down range.

N: If I wanted to experiment with tin:lead ratio, how do I establish a baseline casting metal, then return to it before changing one variable? I have a Lee Production Pot.

F: Make up small test batches of the alloys you wish to test one by one, keeping track of the test run of bullets (probably 20 to 40 bullets) made with them. Drain off the unused alloy each time, retaining it for use later on when you determine which fits your need best.

N: Apparently, dropping cast bullets from the mold into a pail of water — that is, water quenching — causes them to be significantly harder than bullets dropped to a soft damp towel — that is, air quenching. If this is true:

F: Quenching bullets, that is heat-treating them for additional hardness can only be done if they contain antimony.

There are various way to do this heat treatment. Some drop bullets from the mold into water as you say. Others heat them in an oven to a specified temperature and quench them all at once. I've done it but it is not worth the additional effort to me these days. I cast to the dry towel and load them as-cast soft.

N: Stored one year at room temperature, does BHN of quench-hardened bullets change significantly? If yes, how?

F: Yes, but again only when they contain antimony. I'm no metallurgist but I believe it has to do with the cyrstal structure of the alloy meshing/fitting tighter together as the alloy ages.

I also know that lead/tin alloys or plain lead is not stable at room temperature. As compared to steel you may think of lead/tin alloy at 70 degrees as being at a the same temperature as steel is at dull red heat: It is still plenty hot enough for cemical reactions to take place. This is one primary reason I like antimony in my bullets: They are stable at room temperature and do not change shape as do lead/tin will over time. It is also why as-cast soft bullets "age harden" over time.

N: If BHN of quench-hardened bullets changes, how do I stabilize at the higher BHN for storage more than one year?

F: Once heat treated the bullets take about 24 hours to come up to full or maximum hardness. After that they remain quite hard for long periods of time, only becoming very slightly softer after several months pass, then stabilizing (still quite hard) after a couple years.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Offline Naphtali

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2004, 08:04:26 AM »
FAsmus:

"I also know that lead/tin alloys or plain lead is not stable at room temperature. As compared to steel you may think of lead/tin alloy at 70 degrees as being at a the same temperature as steel is at dull red heat: It is still plenty hot enough for chemical reactions to take place. This is one primary reason I like antimony in my bullets: They are stable at room temperature and do not change shape as do lead/tin will over time. It is also why as-cast soft bullets "age harden" over time."

You mention as-cast bullets age harden. We are referring to lead and lead/tin casting alloys? If yes,

1. How long does it take to age harden pure lead, and 1:30 tin/lead?

2. Having age hardened, does this BHN change remain stable indefinitely?

3. If it remains stable, what are hardness ranges for each casting alloy mentioned in #1?

If this process is inherent, perhaps I should attempt to work with it rather than fight against it.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline FAsmus

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2004, 10:31:16 AM »
Naphtali,

N: You mention as-cast bullets age harden. We are referring to lead and lead/tin casting alloys? If yes,

F:  Nope!

As I mentioned in the post above, heat treating AND age hardening of lead alloys require antimony in the mix.

N:  How long does it take to age harden pure lead, and 1:30 tin/lead?

Sure, lead/tim will not harden at all but lead/tin/antimony will harden over time, reaching about as hard as it will get in a couple months.

N: Having age hardened, does this BHN change remain stable indefinitely?

F:  Pretty much. Longer than you and I need to worry about anyway.

N: If it remains stable, what are hardness ranges for each casting alloy mentioned in?

Non-secquter: Lead/tin will not age-harden.

N: If this process is inherent, perhaps I should attempt to work with it rather than fight against it.

The deal really is pretty simple: Lead/tin alloys cast better and are somewhat harder than pure lead and remain right at the hardness they were cast indefinitely . You may rely on it.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Offline Naphtali

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2004, 08:29:04 AM »
All wiggle room is gone. I understand.

have a pleasant, safe holiday.

Thanks,
Lance
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline FAsmus

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What is the effect of tin in bullet alloys?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2004, 06:57:34 AM »
Lance,

Thanks for the exchange.

I had to work the 3rd and 4th but did get to go shooting some the 2nd.

The 45/70 and 50/90 were checked at 1000 yards, fifty shots each. The best load was in the 45/70 with Lyman 457132 and 21 grains 4759. I'll be shooting it next week at the Montana 1000 yard Buffalo Rifle Championship. muzzle loaders permitted!

The 50/90 is a new rifle; too new to shoot in competition. I'll have it broken in by next year.

Good morning,
Forrest